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The fans react: Bonds' place in history Posted: Monday August 12, 2002 7:37 PM
We gave you a list of 25 players and asked you to rank Barry Bonds among the all-time greats. But we also wanted to know who else we should have included on that list. There were many names that could have been there but weren't, and plenty of readers had opinions about that. Here's a sampling:
Sandy Koufax is indisputably one of the greatest pitchers in baseball history. From 1963 to 1967, he won 97 games with an ERA under 2.00. He won the pitching triple crown in 1963, 1965 and 1966. In 1967, his last season, he went 27-9 with an ERA of only 1.73. He undoubtedly is one of the top 10 players of all time. Lefty Grove is one of the top three pitchers of all time, maybe even No. 1. He's without a doubt the greatest left-handed pitcher that ever lived. Leaving him off your ballot was a major mistake. Grove led the AL in ERA nine times. No other major league pitcher in history approaches that figure. He's also the career leader in winning percentage at .680. Nobody in history comes close to that, either. And it's not as if he had a long career. Grove won 300 games despite not reaching the majors until he was in his mid-20s. And he accomplished all these feats in the two most hitter-friendly parks in of his era, Shibe Park in Philadelphia and Fenway Park in Boston. And Grove was left-handed, making his success in Fenway that much more remarkable. As a 39-year-old left-hander in Fenway Park (the Coors Field of its era), and despite nagging injuries, Grove went 15-4 and led the league in ERA. According to Bill James' new Win Share system, Lefty Grove's 1931 season, when he went 31-4 with a 2.06 ERA in a hitters' park and a hitters' league, is the best season in the Lively Ball era (post-1920). James also says Grove had the highest number of Win Shares per season of any pitcher in any era. James rates Grove as the No. 2 pitcher of all time, but makes a convincing argument for putting him No. 1.
By what objective criteria is it possible to leave Grove off the ballot entirely? "Only" 300 wins? Grove won farmore games than any pitcher of his era. His 300 wins, in the context of the period in which he
pitched, are as significant as Johnson's 416 wins or Young's 511, if not
more so. The omission of Lefty Grove makes your entire survey meaningless. You might just as well leave Abraham Lincoln off the ballot of greatest
presidents.
You guys must be idiots. Pete Rose is the all-time hit leader and should be included on anybody's top 10 list. Don't even try to give me any of the "lifetime ban" crap. This is not the MLB here; this is just a poll among a bunch of baseball fans, who I am sure would rather see Rose than Ricky Henderson. Give me a break.
Roberto Clemente could do everything. Besides hitting for a high
average, he could catch, throw and run like few other players. He was
the complete all-around, day-in/day-out ball player who played outside
the national media spotlight. Yet he produced under World Series
pressure and was the player most responsible for the Pirates' winning championships in 1960 and 1971. Then he died as a martyr, attempting to personally assist Latinos suffering from a major earthquake in Nicaragua.
I don't see how you could leave off Jackie Robinson. It's kind of noteworthy that his number is retired league-wide.
How can you list Roger Clemens in your all-time greatest players and not list Nolan Ryan? Everyone knows he is one of the best power pitchers in MLB history, if not the greatest. Just look at his almost unanimous vote into the Hall of Fame in 1998. His stats include seven no-hitters, countless low-hitters, the most K's in a career and in a season. He was around for 27 seasons; no one has lasted longer. Talk about durability, being able to throw high heat in his 40s! This is a pitcher we are talking about, being able to last 27 years in the MLB. What more do I need to say? Clemens may have the Cy Young awards, but other than that, he's not that much more accomplished than Nolan. For further comparision, Nolan Ryan at least equals Walter Johnson.
How can you leave off Pete Rose? The all-time hits leader should be included in the vote, regardless of whether he gets into the Hall of Fame. He eventually will be there, but it may take his death to finally get him in.
Where is Roger Maris? He is one true baseball player, and all he wanted to do is play the game he loved. No one will give him any respect, not even now. He is the greatest player to play the game. I think Hank Greenberg was a possible omission. Even missing 1941-45 because of World War II, he still managed 331 home runs and 1,271 RBIs, as well as a career .315 average and an OPS of over 1.000. If you assume that he would have managed 35 home runs a year over those five years, his home run total would have been over 500.
I am not saying that he is a No. 1 candidate, but I believe he deserves a spot somewhere in the top 10. Don't forget, this is the man that posted one of the five greatest seasons of all time in 1937 -- 40 home runs, 183 RBIs, .337 average, .436 OBP and .668 SLG. He also had 49 doubles that year.
George Brett is certainly in the same league as many of these players. Look at the production!
Where is Greg Maddux? I know he may not make the top 10, but not including him in the top 25 is an injustice on a list that includes Mike Schmidt.
Nolan Ryan. He's the best pitcher of all time. Yes, he lost a lot of games,
but look who he played for ... an expansion Mets team, the California Angels, the Astros (they did have a few good years with Ryan in the early '80s) and the Rangers. It's hard to win when you have those clubs trying to win for you. And then look at the number of years he played ... amazing! Just like Hank Aaron, who is toward the top of my list. And then look at all the no-hitters, the strike outs ... what's wrong with you guys?! You couldn't have just listed him?!
Only three players in the history of baseball collected 500 homers and 3,000 hits. Hank, Willie and Eddie Murray. Eddie played in an era of baseball that fell between the Nintendo-like numbers of the Gehrigs and the Bondses; otherwise, he too would have had inflated stats. In any event, he is in the most select company and belongs on any list of the greatest ever to have played the game.
I have heard all the reasons why and why not, but don't you think that
Pete Rose should be on that list somewhere? I see you have Ty Cobb on the 25 best in history. I am not saying anything about the Hall of Fame,
just that he is without question one of the 25 best players in baseball
history.
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