When is a forfeit not a loss?

... if Michigan 'vacates' games, record books don't change

Sports Illustrated senior writer Grant Wahl answers your college basketball questions every Wednesday. Click here to send him a question.

The 'Bag's official Astute Question of the Week^TM, in the wake of the Michigan mea culpa, comes from Wade Vandort of Bellevue, Wash., who asked: "Do the forfeits by Michigan over the four-year period affect Bob Knight's career wins total and the countdown to the all-time Division I wins record?"

Completely flummoxed by this one, the 'Bag called Gary K. Johnson, the senior assistant director of statistics for the NCAA, who reports that no official NCAA records will be changed until the NCAA Committee on Infractions submits its report on Michigan in February. It comes down to this: Even though Michigan announced it was forfeiting games, Johnson said, the NCAA ultimately decides whether the Wolverines will be forced to forfeit or vacate games.

There's a big difference between the two. If the NCAA has Michigan forfeit the games in question, all of the wins during that period would be changed to losses, and the wins would be credited to the opposing teams (and coaches, e.g., Knight). But if Michigan only vacates games, Johnson said, nothing would change in its opponents' official records.

What will the infractions committee decide? Johnson said he isn't sure, but he did point out that the University of Minnesota's academic-scandal sanctions involved vacating, not forfeiting, games. "Personally, I hope they vacate [the Michigan games]," Johnson said, exhaling a deep sigh at the thought of changing all those official NCAA records. "I believe once a game is played, it's played. Just leave it alone."

If, on the other hand, the NCAA has Michigan forfeit games per the school's announcement last week, Knight would gain three wins, taking him from his current current total of 787 to 790. But don't forget: All-time leader Dean Smith would gain a victory as well (remember Michigan's win over the Heels in the 1992 Rainbow Classic?), taking El Deano from 879 to 880. So Knight would get a plus-2 on the deal -- less than you might have thought, right? (Blame Knight's success against the Wolverines in the 1990s.)

While we're on Michigan, J.P. De Loera of Guadalajara, Mexico, wondered: "So Chris Webber and other players took money. How does that translate into winning games or championships? The Wolverines still would have won those championships even if the players hadn't received the cash. Why is Michigan forfeiting those victories instead of simply banning itself from future tourneys? And with those forfeits, who are the champs?"

Here's the funny thing, J.P., which most fans (and, judging from several recent stories, a ton of columnists) don't realize: The Fab Five never won a championship of any kind. Not one. Not a national title, and not even a Big Ten title. (Michigan finished second and third during the two years Webber was in Ann Arbor.) I won't deny that the Fab Five was a compelling crew, but the mythology surrounding the quintet has far exceeded its accomplishments. (At least Glen Rice and Rumeal Robinson won a national crown.)

As for the two non-Fab Five championship banners Michigan has pulled down -- the '97 NIT title and the '98 Big Ten tournament title -- well, I didn't bother to check, but you can safely assume those have been vacated, leaving no winners (though the thought of Florida State and Purdue, respectively, scurrying to raise new banners strikes the 'Bag as highly amusing.)

No. 1 in Starkville?

Funniest thing in the preseason AP hoops poll had to be that No. 12 Mississippi State actually received one first-place vote. So, of course, the 'Bag tried all day Tuesday to locate this mysterious voter and find out his/her argument for the Bulldogs winning it all -- not so we could ridicule him, but rather so we could appreciate the pluralism our great nation has to offer (in the same way we can appreciate Gus Hall of the Communist Party getting votes for president. In fact, if we were in a parliamentary democracy like, say, Italy, couldn't you see first-place preseason votes going all over the board -- to schools like Tulsa and Pepperdine and Georgia State? Wouldn't that be great?).

Anyway, first we called AP's home office in New York, where an overly gruff (read: no fun) desk guy refused to reveal the voter's name. Then we proceeded to reach three AP voters in Mississippi, Louisiana and Alabama, all of whom vowed they weren't the one. (Yes, the 'Bag really does spend time doing this sort of thing.)

And so, nameless mystery voter, whoever you are, I submit to you: Reveal yourself here, and we'll publish your case for joy in Starkville. (Though we must admit, it doesn't look good if Bulldogs star Mario Austin remains ineligible during investigations into his academic background.)

Opening the 'Bag

Many thanks for filling the Mailbox this week -- not only with dozens of excellent WATN suggestions, but with the usual mix of plaudits/brickbats/etc. on the 'Bag's preseason Top 25. Mostly brickbats, of course, which dealt mainly with ranking teams either too low (see: Maryland and Kentucky) or not at all (see: UCLA, Indiana, Penn, Minnesota, Wisconsin, Ohio State, LSU, Syracuse, Cincinnati, Notre Dame, Pepperdine and Villanova). I'll try and deal with as many as possible in the questions ahead, but if I miss any, just remember: Being No. 27 out of more than 300 teams hardly means that I think your team is terrible.

Where's Pepperdine? The Waves didn't really lose anyone from last year, when they were on the verge of the Top 25. The only reason Gonzaga beat them in the conference tournament was the play of Dan Dickau, who has graduated. Pepperdine has the experience, leadership and coaching you talked about.
—Chris, Los Angeles

Good points, Chris: Pepperdine and Penn were the last two mid-majors to miss the cut, and I could be entirely wrong to have left both out. In fact, I was talking to a West Coast Conference coach last week who said: "It'll be much harder for our team to play against Pepperdine than Gonzaga this year. Pepperdine plays so different from everybody else in our league. Paul [Westphal, the Waves coach] has great athletes at every position, which is why they're so hard to guard. We actually match up with Gonzaga pretty well."

As for Penn, I had a chance to see the Quakers play twice last year and came away mucho impressed with senior Ugonna Onyekwe, a smart player blessed with the level of athleticism you don't often see in the Ivy League. Onyekwe has really developed his game since arriving in Philly, and he was a huge reason Penn was one of the more entertaining teams I saw last spring. Big Five beware -- again.

Good, honest column, but where are the NCAA runners-up on your Top 25? Why no love for Indiana? Sure, the Hoosiers lost Jared Jeffries, the most talented player in IU history (my opinion). But the other seniors were average at best: Jarrad Odle was a good contributor and Dane Fife took minutes away from A.J. Moye all season. Nobody gave them a chance after Kirk Haston left, but they fared pretty well (comeback win vs. Duke, and then no letdown afterward). They definitely should be somewhere between 15-25. BTW, they have the best coach in the country. Mike Davis is only going to get better with experience, as he did during last season.
—Max Newman, Indianapolis

Had a lot of complaints about including only one Big Ten team (Michigan State) in my Top 25, but I'd argue that spots 15-40 could easily contain Indiana, Minnesota, Wisconsin, Ohio State and Illinois. My reasons for keeping Indiana out of the Top 25 (barely, I might add) had to do with my respect for the jobs Odle and Fife did last year -- they'll be missed more than most people realize -- and my doubts that Jeff Newton and George Leach can provide what the Hoosiers need inside. BTW, I love the fire of Tom Coverdale and A.J. Moye, and from my discussion with a Hoosiers assistant last week, I understand that freshman guard Bracey Wright has looked good so far in practice.

Thanks, Grant, for being "that" sportswriter. Every year there are one or two of them: people who leave Cincinnati out of the Top 25 despite the Bearcats' finishing in the Top 25 nearly every year for the last 12.
—T. Murphy, Cincinnati

Question for you, T.: If Cincy loses in the second round of the tourney every year, does that make it a Top 25 team? (Pretty hard to be in the top 32 that way, right?) Look, I wouldn't be surprised at all to see Cincy crack the top 15 soon, if for no other reason than the Bearcats' defense (like Oklahoma's) is one of the few in the country that can truly overpower teams, no matter who's wearing the jersey. But when it comes to NCAA tournaments, Bob Huggins is the anti-Quin Snyder. With one exception, his teams just haven't cut it when it counts.

(By the way, I think Cincy's jersey shorts are some of the coolest around, and I often happily wear a pair during pickup games.)

You often mention coaches like Tom Izzo, who repeatedly reload with talent and put a competitive team on the court every year. What about coaches like Jim O'Brien at Ohio State? Every year the Buckeyes slip under everyone's radar. Not talented enough, no depth, too short, too slow. Yet every year (besides O'Brien's first) the Bucks finish somewhere in the upper division of the Big Ten. Why isn't Jimmy O getting his props?
—Hal Patterson, San Francisco

O'Brien reminds me a lot of one of his predecessors in Columbus, Gary Williams, who has also made a habit of turning less-heralded recruits into difference-makers. (Or, as the Terps' Ryan Randle calls his untouted brethren, "Burger King All-Americans.") I've realized that maybe some coaches just do better when they stay away from the McDonald's-type players. In fact, I'm starting to think Tubby Smith is one of them, judging from all the success he had at Georgia and Tulsa with no-names (and all the stuff he's dealing with now at Kentucky).

Station break: Three random things