Bonds the "Greatest Living Hitter on Steroids". All of Bond's records you mentioned (2001- 2004) occurred during his steroid years. Coincidence? I wonder what kind of numbers a juiced up Babe Ruth or Hank AAron would have put up?

no forget the steroids
can we just get over that?
it makes him hit farther ok
but it doesnt make his timing perfect
it doesnt help his timing at all
he's the best
bonds and the big G
all the way

Like it or not, steroids are an unknown. We don't to what extent they may benefit, nor do we know for sure that he took them. (You can suspect all you want, but that doesn't convict him!) Based on the facts, Bonds is absolutely the best living hitter.

There are 2 hitters currently playing now who's numbers indicate that they are among the most skilled hitters who have ever played: A-Rod and Ichiro Sizuki. Yet, their names don't appeare on any of your lists. And what about Rod Carew and Tony Gwynn?

Henry Aaron is the greatest living hitter. Why anyone else even gets mention is a mystery to me (although props for the Edgar Martinez reference--he deserves it).

Ted Williams is the greatest hitter of all time. He lost 4 full seasons serving as a combat pilot in the peak of his career...and look at his numbers without those 4 years. Bonds peak 4 seasons were while he "allegedly" took steroids. Bonds is no doubt a great all around player, but his rise to the apex of all time performance was likely due to cheating.

Stan Musial should be dubbed "The Greatest Living Hitter". That tab, whether given to Dimaggio or Williams, was a curtain call to a player who distinguished themselves in a past era. Though Bonds is a great hitter, he is still playing. It would be a class act of the media and baseball to recognize one of the greatest hitters of all time, in lieu of the tarnished image it has taken the past few years.

The five best hitters I have ever seen in 40 plus years are Bonds, Pujols, Griffey Jr., A-Rod and Manny Ramirez. Every plate appearance generates electricity from this group. Barry Bonds is just a cut above the rest. He is undoubtably the Best Hitter and Best Living Baseball Player and maybe of all time. Don't hate the Player, hate the Game. If you truly love baseball you have got to love what he has accomplished in our lifetimes.

To counterpoint those who say that Bonds' accomplishments are tarnished by steriods: Are you absolutely certain that Bonds is the only player to have taken steroids over that timespan? Because I am pretty convinced that there were multiple batters (and pitchers!)taking steroids from 2001-2004.

With that in mind, look at what stat that Rich has selected: OPS+. It combines the OPS of the player to league average. So, in an era during which many players, including Barry Bonds, took anabolic steroids.... Barry Bonds dominated. He was 82% better than the average player from 2001-2004. That is significant.

Baseball stop wasting time....the 90's steroid group including Bond's should be called CHEATERS.

THE BABE .Mr.Henry AAron...I agree with Fan24...Roberto Clemente...did we forget....

"Like it or not, steroids are an unknown."

See no evil. Hear no evil. Speak no evil.

Look at Bonds numbers from '86 to '00. Quick stats from 1986-2000: Highest AVG .336 (only over .300 7 times), most HRs 49 (more than 40 only 4 times), highest SLG% .688 (stayed around .600 most of this time). Now look at '01-'04: AVG over .328 each year, HR's blew his old record out of the water..but only for those 4 years, SLG% .863 in '01 and was higher the following 3 years than he had ever been. And this all happened after the ripe 'ole age of 37 and continued for 4 years.

If you look at all the other "greats", theirs numbers started falling off before they got to 37. Bonds, however, increased dramatically. If he was not on ROIDS, he is the greatest living and non-living player.....hands down. Not only for his feats but for defying age and science..

You have to be kidding me. No mention of Yaz at all in your article yet you list Edgar Martinez, Jim Thome, Gary Sheffield as better hitters?

This discussion can go on forever. With the " dead ball " era people, the steroid people etc. Dont forget who helped produce team championships ! The Babe has that hands down and in all directions. The comment I saw about Williams and his military service is absolutely correct as well. Speed, agility, extra base hits other than homers - give me the Babe and the " Say Hey " kid anytime !!!

This discussion can go on forever. With the " dead ball " era people, the steroid people etc. Dont forget who helped produce team championships ! The Babe has that hands down and in all directions. The comment I saw about Williams and his military service is absolutely correct as well. Speed, agility, extra base hits other than homers - give me the Babe and the " Say Hey " kid anytime !!!

I don't agree with using the TOTAL RCAA as opposed to the year-year average. Great hitters like Pujols get left out merely because they haven't played full careers yet. And while only a full career could measure a player's greatness completely, for argument's sake, I feel average is a better tool.

There is also the matter of walk/strikeout ratios. In such a case Bonds is still great, but so are Pujols and others. And in terms of average walks per year, well, Bonds again, and Pujols, but someone like Gwynn is left behind, and Ricky Henderson leaps forward.

Bonds should not be mentioned in any discussion. He cheats period, and will soon be proven. He should receive the same punishment that Pete Rose has gotten. Kicked out of baseball it is the only thing left to do with Bonds.

Avg player + X = All Star / boarder line Hall of fame player (aka Mark & Jose)

Hall of fame player + X = God like / arguably best of all time

No steroids don't help with your timing, but it does allow a hitter to change his hitting style to hit fly balls that would normally be short to going into the bay.

Question is X.. and does X play a factor in this.

Baseball is about numbers, always has been, always will be. Those numbers don't lie. All those people who believe that Bonds' numbers should not count because of the (strong) possibility that he used illegal substances should consider this: does anybody really know what went on in the 1920s and 1930s? All I know is that all sorts of people took all sorts of drugs in those times. I know, I know, Babe Ruth is considered some sort of saint. But why does everybody assume that Bonds was the first and only player among the all-time greats who took illegal drugs?

Although Barry Bonds has the greatest all-time numbers in terms of hitting, he lacks one crucial component of a true legend: Fan admiration.

It takes a certain loyalty and love from fans to create a legend in baseball, and unfortunately for Mr. Bonds he'll only be remembered in baseball infamy.

How does Tony Gwynn not make any of these lists!? Do eight batting titles and the fact that he's come the closest to hitting .400 since Ted Williams count for nothing? I see that power numbers still ten to scew "experts" vision,

Oh, when and why did some pointy-headed journalist decide that a walk was as good as a base hit, and therefore OBP was the gospel from on high?

If you believe that, then can you tell me why pitchers would rather walk Bonds than pitch to him? Did you ever hear of a pitcher giving up an "intentional single"? Of course you haven't ... because a walk is NOT as good as a hit.

And as an aside, can you imagine how many times Ruth would walk nowadays?

We don't to what extent they may benefit, nor do we know for sure that he took them.

Not true, Bonds admitted under oath to using the clear and the cream. Although he testified he thought it was flaxseed oil and a rubbing balm at the time, he did in fact acknowledge taking both, which are steroids.

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2004/12/03/MNGGFA0UDU65.DTL

This is an impossible arguement, and while I don't agree with Bonds being your pick, I don't think that is the problem with this. The thing I have a problem with is that you are basing this whole arguement on stats and nothing else. Statistics shouldn't make the arguement, just support it. There wasn't anything about how these people actually played, just the numbers they put up.

Why are you using stats that aren't really measuring HITTING?

Sure, OPS is nice and all and so is this new RCAA stat too.

But we're talking about just hitting, and NOT run producing. Why exclude people who didn't hit a lot of home runs in their careers? That doesn't make them a worse hitter. Maybe it has to do with where they batted in the lineup.

Tony Gwynn was a MUCH better hitter than Barry Bonds. Tony Gwynn also has the 17th highest average in history. Vladimir Guerrero ranks 37th and he can hit almost any pitch you throw at him.

Barry's average is way inflated because nobody pitches to him, so the amount of walks he gets are high, whereas the amount of actual at bats he has are decreased. Sure, he hit .370 a few years back, because he was walked almost 200 times.

But as a HITTER? His batting average isn't even over .300.

As a run producer? He is certainly not the greatest. 73 hrs...137 rbi! Come on, how many of those are solos.

At least call him the Greatest Living POWER Hitter, because he certainly doesn't hit for average, which is what most HITTERS do.

If all of your critics don't know Barry Bonds and have never seen him doing anything with your own eyes you should keep your mouth shut. Nothing has ever been proved period. I personnally don't care for the guy but what he can do with a bat is amazing. If all of you think steroids is all you need to hit like he has I suggest you shoot up and prove your theory.

Bonds' use of steroids would trump any designation for immortality, including the HR title. Not only could he have hit the ball farther on steroids, but one would suspect his bat speed would be superior too. You just don't know. Because of that, he should remain off any lists of greatness...that is, if he indeed did do steroids.
The other thing not mentioned is that he acts like a jerk, and he has not lead his team to a title.

I'm sorry, but everyone who's defending Bonds is living in fantasy land. Bonds used, it's plan as day, and there's just no point comparing him to someone clean, like Musial, or Pujols, or Rodriguez. It's true that no one knows the full impact of steroids, and for that reason we should count Bonds out. Since we can't know how much he benefited from his use, it's illogical to compare him to anyone else.

If you steal the answers to an exam, it doesn't matter if you would have known them anyway, you still cheated, and if you get caught, you've forfeited you're right to any right answers you would have gotten legitimately. Same holds for Bonds.

Oh, and whoever said we should work with averages and not career stats is absolutely right. Pujols and Rodriguez are clearly in the hitters stratosphere. Any list that claims to include the greatest living hitters and leaves them out is nonsense.

"Shoot up and prove your theory"? That's too easy....

Take away steroids, and Bonds is still the best living hitter.

Bonds 1993 season is one of the best offensive seasons ever - Nobody on the last has topped it. Look at OPS+, Bonds 206 in 159 games is Ruthian.

He;s defenitely the best living hitter.

come on give frank thomas some love...he had never had any controversy on him, is a two time mvp, and is still considered a dangerous hitter at the age of 39

nor do we know for sure that he took them.

He admitted in his grand jury testimony that he took 2 steroids, the cream and the clear, thinking it was flaxseed oil. So we do know for sure.

Steroids, amphetamines, the clear and the cream...Bonds is the greatest player I've ever seen.

If you want to say that Bonds isn't as great as Aaron, Ruth, etc. because he took steroids, that's fine.

Compared to his contemporaries, a great number of whom also used steroids or other performance enhancements of some kind, however, Bonds is certainly, clearly, obviously the best player of his generation. There is just no denying it. Barry Bonds was, he is, he will forever be one of the best players to ever play the game.

how arod is not mentioned is beyond me. he's better than most of, if not all those guys on those lists.

From a consistency basis, I think that Tony Gwynn should be considered the greatest living hitter. He has come the closest to hitting .400 since Ted Williams and I would consider him to be the greatest ever. If you needed a hit, I wouldn't hesitate to send one of those guys to the plate. Power should be considered as another category. I would also create a chemically enhanced category. We'll know the truth about Barry when he ends up like Lyle Alzado. Some people just don't get it. As angering as it is, it's more pathetic than anything. Why would you sacrifice your health for such an endeavor?

no one really cares about BASEBALL itself anymore. It's all about records and homer runs. Why can't anyone just appreciate what these players do? And it's not Bonds' fault he took steriods. He was the best player of his time before everyone took steriods, and he is the best after juicing. We all know that people just want to see homer runs. That is why the Babe is so immortal. It is the organizations and fans of baseball that should be blamed if you want to call the steriod era as a black make in baseball history.

I wish everyone would just cut the crap and acknowledge the fact that it takes more than medicinal interventions to hit a freaking baseball. In defense of pure talent...why don't some of you critics try standing at home plate with a 100 mph billy wagner Fastball coming at you and then have the "hand'eye" coordination to hit it 450 ft....I rest my case....and so should all you detractors of Mr. Barry Bonds....

Wow. I thought the sabermetric revolution had hit the masses. Guess not.

bonds is a beast and even tho he was most likely on steriods it wouldnt be hard for me to believe he would still have put up better numbers than those other hitters...taking steriods of course amplified his numbers but i would be hard pressed to say he wouldnt be right up there anyway...not to mention his speed and stolen bases in his younger days...besides that the greatest living hitter has to be hank aaron

Bonds has never tested positive for true steroids. So get over it. Until he tests positive for something that is going to make him stronger, you people who keep on saying that he is on steroids are retarded. In this country, we are INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY. Bonds has not been proven guilty. He is the best hitter alive, and the best hitter ever. Also Edgar Martinez is one of the best hitters alive and deserves to be in the Hall of Fame.

Barry is the greatest hitter ever to play the game. Although he is cocky, he is still the greatest hitter ever. Bonds is the most skilled. Put Steriods on on some random minor league player and he wont produce the numbers bonds has. Bonds has always been great and will always remain great. People can hate all they want. Everytime someone is successful, people always want to bring him down. People hate him because he is too damn good. All of baseball takes steriods and HGH. If bonds ever took steroids, he took them when there legal. In the end, who cares. It was really common for players to take those kinds of things. Even pitchers took HGH.
Leave Barry Alone.

America's past time is being ripped apart. I don't think anyone linked to any steroid usage should even have they're named linked to the word greatest. They cheated plain and simple. Roger Marris had an * next to his 61 and that was because there were more games then the babe had. Now someone who actually cheated will get away with breaking a record without a slap on the wrist. Thats just plain insulting to Hank Aaron.

marc - hitting is not about batting average, it's about everything a player does at the plate to create runs - how often they get hits, how much power they hit for, and how often they get on base via methods other than hits. There are some players with .240 averages who are better than some players with .300 averages. The greatest hitters are the ones who produce the most runs at the plate (the one part of offensive production that hitting doesn't include is baserunning).

call me old fashioned, but...

what about looking at batting average? I notice you didn't compare RCAA and OPS+ for Joe and Ted , why not? I don't think you can put this article in a historical context only halfway.

I appreciate the thoughtful and articulate way Mr. Lederer has made the case for Bonds, and I hope he writes a lot more articles here. In the last 45 years I have seen the game and its players change radically and pretty steadily. So my question is: no matter what stats we use, how can we validly compare one player to another, when they played in different times, even different decades? It's great stuff to debate and study the game with, but far from science.

There are 7 guys on this list I would NOT take for George Brett. Brett also won Sports Illustrated's greatest 3rd baseman of all time moniker a few years back so what is Schmidt doing on this list? All this list is, and I can't emphasize this enough, is one man's opinion. One somewhat mis-guided man.

i cannot wait because in about 4-5 more years we wont be talking about Bonds' numbers because most of them will be passed by Mr. Albert Pujols. Pujols has put up better number in the start of his career than anyone. the scary thing is, he is only getting better each year. last year he set many career bests. even if bonds passes Aaron, which i HOPE he doesnt, then that mark will fall in the next decade to Pujols.

Alex rodriguez come the ened of his career will be hands down the leader of all these lists, has anyone seen what arod has been doing lately?

Bonds has never tested positive for true steroids.

The cream and the clear are true steroids. No need to test when he admitted, under oath, to taking them.

Bonds has not been proven guilty.

Sure he has, by his own words in front of a grand jury.

If bonds ever took steroids, he took them when there legal.

There is no "if", by his own admission, he took them. In addition, steroids have never been legal. At the time they may have not been expressly banned under MLB rules, but they were illegal under US law. Just because it doesn't say someone can't murder another person in the MLB rulebook, it doesn't mean a ballplayer can go kill someone on the diamond.

I like the stats used for these lists, but what about avg. with runners in scoring position, 2 outs(insanely clutch hitting)? Lance Berkman would be up there as his avg. in this situation is over .400, as would A-Rod of late (the guy's gonna shatter whatever records Bonds breaks, so who cares when he surpasses Aaron). P.S.: I'm actually not a Yankees fan, either.

Who cares if he uses them or not? Just do not expect ANY sympathy from me or any of the baseball purists when his heart gives out a few years from now and he comes clean on ESPN, People Magazine, CNN, etc.

You are confusing the words "best" and "greatest." The former can be largely settled by statistics, and there is no doubt that Bonds is the best hitter among the living. But greatness requires qualities like character and excitement as well as being skilled. Bonds is not even eligible for a "greatest" list. The clear-cut winners are Mays and Aaron, with an edge to Mays.

"Greatest?" How can you have a discussion about greatness merely using statistics? Eric Heiden and Mark Spitz acheived greatness by dominating their competition. Yes, they also set incredible numerical records in the process, but their greatness is a testament to how the competition withered in their presence.

Baseball is a team sport. A myriad of factors influence a player's performance--some he controls--many he can't. We don't apply the mantle of greatness to Ruth because of his 714 home runs, but because of how the competition shook in their cleats when he straddled the plate. The HRs were a by-product of the terror he struck in the hearts of the opposition. To say that 714 is why Ruth is considered great is missing the point.

Only one player today affects the game merely by his presence in the lineup. Much in the same way one cannot ignore Tiger's presence in a golf tournament, let's face it--Barry Bonds greatly impacts each game he plays. Whether the reverberations are the by-product of the steroids mystique, or the memory of his last GWRBI, Bonds strikes fear in his opposition much like Ty Cobb did with his high flying cleats.

You can't measure greatness--you can only stare at it in wonder and admiration, or shake your head at it in frustratrtion. Clean or dirty, awe-inspiring or wrath-incurring, Bonds has it.

And That's Coming From A Lifelong Dodger Fan

Bonds is not only the greatest living hitter, he's probably also the greatest living all around player and may also be the greatest hitter and player of all time. We're used to the recent Bonds and it's easy to overlook that when he was younger he was a great fielder and baserunner as well. Bill James has called Bonds the greatest power-speed combination in baseball history.

As a lifelong Padre fan, even I can't argue with the fact that Bonds is and has always been a great hitter. But some of your selections I disagree with (Thome? Sheffield?) and I think you have "power" badly over-valued.

Another thing to look at is the pitchers. A guy who goes 3 for 10 with 3 HRs against, say, Jose Lima isn't NEARLY as impressive (to me) as a guy going 6 for 10 with NO HRs against Johan Santana.

Tony Gwynn might not have hit very many 500-foot moonshots, but his lifetime average against guys like Greg Maddux and Randy Johnson is near .400

Using your metrics, and assuming he was still alive, I doubt Ty Cobb would make the Top Ten because he only hit 117 HRs, and that's just foolishness.

Babe Ruth was the Greatest
Living Hitter 'til he died- then
Joe D. was given the G.L.H. title-
then it was Teddy Ballgame. But,
since then, no one has been given
the title-G.L.H. The absolute truth
is-Since 1954, the REAL GLH has been
Willie Mays, a title he'll hold 'til
he dies, then he'll be the Greatest
All-Around Player Who Ever Lived!!!
End of Discussion-

dubkiller - Barry has never admitted to using steroids, read the grandjury testimony again.

Christ, why does this falsehood still comeup?

Looks like you overlooked one of the very best in Raphael Palemero. Nearly 600 homes, over 3000 hits, a .290 BA and not far from the top of the list in RBI. Who else has numbers like that? Bonds falls way short of Palemero’s numbers, except in home runs. I suspect steriods had something to do with his omisson. Steriods might help you hit home runs, but they don’t help you get 3000 hits. Talent does. He had way better career stats than McGuire, Thomas and many others listed in the article.