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SI.com college football writer Stewart Mandel shares his commentary, analysis and random tidbits on the latest developments around the country.9/30/2007 05:19:00 PM Five Things We Learned This Weekend
Cal's Robert Jordan celebrates with fans after the Golden Bears' wild win over Oregon.AP
1) That them boys out West can play some football. In terms of excitement level, quality of play and the high rankings of both participants, Saturday's Cal-Oregon game was easily the season's most compelling to date. Unfortunately, almost no one east of the Rockies saw it thanks to ABC's regional coverage that split five different games (the others: Clemson-Georgia Tech, Michigan State-Wisconsin, Kansas State-Texas and Maryland-Rutgers) during its 3:30 p.m. EST broadcast window. The lucky 20 percent of you who could see it were treated to a back-and-forth thriller in which the score was tied on five different occasions, the stars for both sides (Cal's Nate Longshore and DeSean Jackson, Oregon's Dennis Dixon and Jonathan Stewart) shined bright, both defenses made big plays and the final, 31-24 outcome was not decided until a reply confirmed that Ducks receiver Cameron Colvin had indeed fumbled a yard shy of the game-tying touchdown.
Both teams' impressive performances, coupled with so many bad losses by other top-10 teams this weekend, caused me to do something unprecedented in six years of ranking teams: I moved up both teams. Cal's jump from No. 7 to No. 3 was a no-brainer what with Nos. 3-6 (Oklahoma, Florida, West Virginia and Texas) all losing. Conventional logic would say the Ducks, whom I previously had 11th, should drop at least a couple spots for losing, which is exactly what the majority of my fellow voters did in dropping Oregon to 14th in the new AP poll Sunday. To each his own, but ask yourself this: If "No. 5" Wisconsin and "No. 14" Oregon played on a neutral field right now -- who would you take? How about the Ducks against No. 8 Kentucky?
The one concern with Oregon is whether the Ducks are about to go into one of their customary swoons -- they started 4-0 last year, too, before losing to Cal (albeit in a much more lopsided fashion), and wound up finishing 7-6. But it's hard to see a team with that kind of offensive balance (Dixon threw for 306 yards, Stewart ran for 120) and a defense that can stuff the run (Cal averaged just 3.5 yards per attempt) losing too many more games. And the scary part is -- they were only the second-best team on the field Saturday.
2) That the Big 12 North is back! (Finally.) The Big 12 was formed in 1996, and for the first five years or so, the balance of power was clearly in the North, where Nebraska and Kansas State were the conference's dominant programs. Then Mack Brown came to Texas, Bob Stoops to Oklahoma and the pendulum quickly swung south. With the recent decline of the Huskers, Wildcats and Colorado, things got so bad that the Buffaloes won consecutive division titles in 2004 and '05 with overtly mediocre squads (the second of which lost 70-3 to Texas in the conference title game). Those two seasons constituted the North's undisputed low point, with the six division teams going a combined 5-27 against the five South teams not named Baylor.
That's why Saturday was such a significant day within the Big 12. It wasn't just that highly ranked Oklahoma and Texas lost -- it's who they lost to. Rapidly improving Kansas State showed last year's breakthrough win over the Longhorns was no fluke, this time handing Colt McCoy and Co. the worst home loss (41-21) of the Mack Brown era. Meanwhile, Colorado, a year removed from going 2-10, stunned a previously dominant Sooners team in Boulder. Both Ron Prince's and Dan Hawkins' second-year programs are clearly headed in the right direction -- K-State, you may recall, came within a last-minute touchdown of winning at Auburn opening weekend, while the Buffs' 16-6 loss to Florida State two weeks ago doesn't seem so bad after watching the ‘Noles shut down No. 22 Alabama in similar fashion Saturday.
Couple them with thus-far undefeated Missouri and Kansas, along with disappointing starts so for not only the South's Sooners and ‘Horns but also Oklahoma State and Texas A&M, and it's no stretch to say the North may be the superior division this season. And that's without even mentioning its highest ranked team in the preseason, defensively challenged Nebraska.
3) That it's always the quarterback's fault Shortly after USC's 27-24 win at Washington, I checked out one of the message boards at the fan site WeAreSC.com and was surprised to see threads with the following titles: "Booty is our Rex Grossman," "Booty = Deer in Headlights = Over rated" and "****official replace Booty thread****." Wow. A month ago they were ready to hand this guy the latest Trojan Heisman; now they want to bench him? (I suppose when your two immediate predecessors both won Heismans, anything short of Heisman-esque performances is considered unacceptable). Meanwhile, after watching their team's offense go in the toilet against Florida State, several Alabama fans e-mailed me suggesting Nick Saban ought to look at replacing second-year QB John Parker Wilson -- the same guy who was being celebrated just two weeks ago for throwing a game-winning touchdown pass (his fourth of the night) to beat Arkansas.
Mind you, there are plenty of times when a quarterback deserves every bit of the criticism he receives (though I'd be careful not to utter such critiques in the vicinity of Mike Gundy). These are not them. I seriously doubt Booty has forgotten how to play quarterback since the Rose Bowl. He did throw a couple of bad interceptions against the Huskies, but he was hardly the sole reason the game was so close. USC committed 16 penalties, and its already injury-riddled offensive line suffered another casualty (starting guard Chilo Rachal). And while nearly all the Trojans' young receivers were highly touted coming out of high school, none of them are yet playing anywhere near the same level as predecessors Dwayne Jarrett and Steve Smith. Meanwhile, USC has figured out that its strength on offense this season lies with its running game -- Stafon Johnson and Chauncey Washington combined for 228 yards on 35 carries Saturday night. Booty's production (875 yards through four games) will inevitably suffer, but he's still completed nearly 66 percent of his passes for 10 touchdowns against four picks.
In Wilson's case, I would imagine his newfound critics were particularly riled by one specific game-changing play early in the fourth quarter Saturday. Trailing 7-0 and pinned at his own 8-yard line, a desperate Wilson foolishly tried to scramble and get a pass off on a third-and-15 despite a gang of defenders converging on him. ‘Noles DE Everette Brown wrapped him up from behind and forced a fumble that set up an easy second touchdown for FSU. It was a bad play by Wilson, no question, but this was also the most imposing defense the Tide have faced to date, and it turns out Nick Saban might not yet have the personnel up front to counter it. If I were a 'Bama fan, I'd be much more dismayed by my team's inability to run the ball (89 yards on 27 attempts) than Wilson's 28-of-53, 240-yard, two-touchdown performance. "When you can't run the football and get a block," said Saban, "that's not the quarterback's fault." Tell that to the message-board folks.
4) That there are signs of life from the ACC. Florida State's victory over the SEC's Crimson Tide was significant not only for Bobby Bowden's program but for its oft-maligned conference. And that wasn't the only feather in the ACC's cap Saturday. Maryland, widely expected to finish in the middle of the pack at best (especially following a lopsided loss to West Virginia and a complete collapse last week at Wake Forest) went on the road and stunned a top-10 Rutgers team. The Terps' victory -- in which they piled up 458 yards against a Scarlet Knights defense that ranked fourth in the country last season -- was so rousing it even caused television's most transparent Terps homer, Scott Van Pelt, to give a "helmet sticker" to the entire Maryland team on ESPN's late-night wrap-up show.
Elsewhere in the ACC on Saturday, surprise 4-1 team Virginia cast its own stone at the Big East with a 44-14 shellacking of Pittsburgh (conversely, Louisville handled N.C. State 29-10), while Georgia Tech showed it's not about to go quietly into the night by shutting down No. 13 Clemson. The league's one big disappointment continues to be offensively inept Virginia Tech, which mustered just 17 points against a bad North Carolina team. (South Florida put up 37 on the Tar Heels just a week earlier.) The Hokies came into the season as the conference's runaway favorite, but now that would appear to be 5-0 Boston College, with any number of other teams -- FSU, Maryland, Clemson, Georgia Tech, Wake and Virginia among them -- capable as well.
5) That if ever there was a year to delay the first polls until Oct. 1, this would be it. Before the season, I argued in the pages of Sports Illustrated that while preseason polls will always exist, be it on the Internet or in the pages of SI, Athlon or Street and Smith's, it would behoove the AP and coaches to delay the release of their first editions until at least a month into the season. The reality is, in the BCS era, there is a whole lot riding on what used to be just-for-fun exercises. There's simply no way to legitimately handicap a field of rosters that change dramatically from one season to the next -- and the 2007 season in particular has demonstrated that dramatically. While there will always be preseason "flops" and "surprises," and while even the very best teams in the country are vulnerable to an upset or two in conference play, never before has there been this much upheaval this early. We'd barely even gotten a chance to decipher the national hierarchy before the Auburns and Colorados of the world went out and blew it up.
As a result, never have I had a harder time filling out my weekly AP ballot than I did this weekend. What I ended up doing is something we should probably all start doing around this time every season: Throwing out my previous ballot and starting from scratch. As a result, some teams moved up or down from last week more dramatically than others despite similar results; the first batch of two-loss teams (Auburn and Colorado) made their entry several weeks earlier than usual (while another, Arkansas, got tossed out after having remained in last week); and comparative records (i.e. a 5-0 team vs. a 4-1 or 3-2 team) carried less weight than the presence or absence of impressive victories and/or the quality of opponents to whom they lost. The result was this extreme-makeover edition (which I will explain in further detail when my Power Rankings are published Tuesday). I'm sure nearly every single one of you will disagree with at least something in there, and that's perfectly fine with me. It's just one man's opinion, to which everyone's entitled. Besides, anyone who tries tells you he's definitively figured out this season's pecking order is either highly deluded or a visitor from the future.posted by Stewart Mandel | View comments |Comments:
I agree that Oregon should rise despite its loss. Right NOW, there are only about four teams that would be favored over them on a neutral field. That's also why I'm ready to say that the Pac-10 actually is currently the best conference in college football. Its top three teams are simply better than the top three of any other conference. I'm sure a lot of people with residences between Louisiana and Florida would disagree but I can't see how any unbiased person would not come to the same conclusion.
Speaking of which, Florida lost (at home) to the same Auburn team that lost (at home) to South Florida. Using logic, I'm sure there are plenty of SEC fans ready to admit that the Big East is a better conference, right? Riiiiiiiight.
When was the last time both Texas AND Oklahoma entered the Red River Shootout with a loss?
Go Baylor.Mandel, practice what you preach. In moving Oregon up you (rightly) use the justification that they would beat Wisconsin. But do you honestly think any of these teams
5 Ohio St.
6 Oregon
8 Oklahoma
14 Florida
would LOSE TO SOUTH FLORIDA?
Bull. Get off the USF bandwagon, dude!I think we learned that there is more parity this year. It still remains to be seen whether LSU and USC are to remain in the elite status. I thought both would be beaten at least once this season. And we have learned that the early talk of Hawaii's weak schedule keeping it out of BCS bowl contention was hogwash. Hawaii will continue to be bumped forward week after thrilling week with its daredevil attitude towards scheduling championship level competition.Two things:
There's no reason to delay the AP poll or stress out about it, because it's no longer used by the BCS anyway.
If I wanted to know what message board nitwits were saying, I know where to find them. Please quit writing about them (or lazily letting them write your column for you?).Thanks Stew - I totally agree! It's absolutely unfathomable to me that Oregon drops while losing a nail-biter to the (now) number 3 team in the country. Oklahoma, Wisconsin, BC, South Carolina have no business being ranked higher than the Ducks, and for once I see what a joke the AP really is. Though I do agree with dropping my beloved Trojans to number 2. Perhaps that will light a fire under their belly (the Trojans are heretofore renamed the ToeJams until further notice after last nights' performance).That it exactly why Preseason Ranking should not be official. If you pay close attention to the preseason top 10, you will noticed 7 out of 10 teams have already lost, two of them have two losses! The only three remaining is USC, LSU, and still struggling Wisconsin. That speak for itself.Thanks Stu. If nothing you are at least consistent in your (il)logic. So, LSU beats 114th ranked Tulane, USC going 4-deep for its cornerback due to injuries, and suffering still more injuries on the road, at night, in the rain against a conference opponent ranked 46th (which BTW beat Syrcause, Louisville victors by 30), gets dropped to second. While you were correct re moving Oregon up, having South Florida moved higher than Ohio State, Oregon or Oklahoma is idiotic at best.USC hag a horrible game but did what elite teams are supposed to do --win.This is the difference between the SEC and every other conference. Cal and Oregon are both good teams and played a high level of football. NOw both get to coast through their schedule until they play USC and then no championship game. UF plays Auburn, LSU, Kentucky, Georgia, USC and FSU and that after playing Tennessee. Not even close and then if they win all those they still have to play a championship game....I would love to see Oregon rebound and travel to Alabama and the UGA, Kentucky, UF, LSU, and a weak Auburn or Tennessee at night. I mean Stanford, Washington St, Washington, UCLA, Arizona, Arizona St, and Oregon St...WOW THOSE ARE SOME POOWEr HOUSE PROGRAMS...HOw many national championships between them in the last 10-15 years????????Hey posters,
all South Florida has done is win every game against BCS opponents thus far, including West Virginia and Auburn. Why not reward them with a significant bump? They are undefeated, they've beaten good competition, and many of the teams you've proposed bumping ahead of them just lost to lesser teams (e.g., Fla, Oklahoma). Face it, USF has a great and legitimate defense (just ask the Mountaineers). If USF had been playing those OK or UF teams yesterday, they WOULD have beaten them.
I think I can see your biases showing towards the more traditional programs.
MattI'm getting a little tired of the growing chorus of "drop John David Booty" from SC fans. Booty is not Carson Palmer and Booty is not Matt Leinart. But he is still a strong QB. As I recall from the game last night, most of the problems the Trojans had were not Booty's fault. Yes he overthrew a couple of times and was picked off, but I distinctly recall him connecting with receivers who couldn't hold onto the ball. And he wasn't even on the field for a sloppy turnover or two. Face it SC fans (myself included), he's the best we've got, and he's not going anywhere. And for Pete's sake, they won the game.
Although I would have loved to see my Trojans keep the #1 spot this week, I'm not all that upset about LSU taking over by the tiniest of margins. There is still nothing keeping the Trojans from the BSC title game except for the Trojans themselves. Just keep winning games and earn the trip. Nothing wrong with that. And don't be surprised if that #1 spot goes back and forth a couple more times before the season is over. The Trojans are perfectly capable of winning all of their games. No, it won't be easy. They just have to do it. That's what champions do.
I'm glad to see Cal & Oregon get the props they deserve.
Finally, a general comment on "bias." Fans love to accuse sports writers of terrible bias when they disagree about their team. But the fact is that any fan on any given day displays more irrational bias than all the sports writers put together. If you don't like what a writer says about your team or you think your team doesn't get the praise and attention they deserve, your team is perfectly capable of earning it by winning their games and proving the writers wrong. And if they can't. . . well then.That the Big 12 North is back! (Finally.)......so that is like being the smartest kid on the short bus.
Great so Nebraska, whose defense could stop a 2 yr old on a tricycle, gets to play the winner of Texas-Oklahoma...which is still Texas or Oklahoma getting a warm up for their BS....err sorry BCS game. The Big 12 North will continue to be the also rans in the Big 12 for a few more yrs.Kentucky has beaten an SEC West team on the road and a Top 10 Big East team at home. South Florida has beaten an SEC West team on the road and a Top 10 Big East team at home. Yet, USF is 5 and UK is 12? Seriously, how does that make sense?
Also, Georgia, a team in the SEC East, has 1 loss. Kentucky, a team in the SEC East, is undefeated. The last time these two team played, UK won. Yet, UGA is ranked higher than UK? Once again, it doesn't make a lot of sense.
Kentucky vs. USF would be a game that would probably be won by the home team. But, based on what they've done this year, I don't understand the huge difference you have for them in the rankings.The last thing anyone should be saying after this week is "Do you honestly think this team would beat that team?" How many people honestly picked Colorado to beat Oklahoma?
The fact is, South Florida is a Big East school (a BCS conference) and therefore shouldn't be derided for their season. Kentucky is #8 right now and they are typically one of the doormats for the big-time SEC schools.
As for #1, I still don't see how USC can be penalized for a close game against a recent Top 25 team. Despite the final score, Tulane played LSU close, and thus their victory was just as unimpressive if not more so than USC's.thanks Stew.... But watch out for the Buckeyes. Not because they are the best team in the country but because they have the most favorable schedule in the country. They have already proven they are a team to be reckoned with with the lopsided victory over Washington that gave USC such a difficult time. Yes, they play Michigan who had a difficult time with Northwestern, a team OSU was up 35-0 by the beginning of the second qtr. Wisconsin comes to the horseshoe this year and thats an automatic +10. Penn State is in a death spiral. Who does that leave? Purdue, Kent State and Michigan State. Of the three, Michigan State will present the biggest challenge with Dantonio's history here but again they are playing at the horseshoe. This is a classic Jim Tressel season and why he has won 4 national championships and been in the championship games many more times. We all remember Florida last year but they aren't the same team and neither is OSU. The real question is who is getting the most out of the replacements in this reloading year??USF would have beaten anybody (except LSU) in the country Friday night. They have MUCH TOO MUCH speed for Ohio State or any Big Ten school.I really don't understand the continued USF skepticism. Taylor Holland even included Florida among the list of teams that I'd be nuts to think would "LOSE TO SOUTH FLORIDA."
Well, let's see here. USF beat Auburn on the road. Florida lost to Auburn at home. ... So how is it unfathomable that USF could beat Florida???I just read Trey's comment and wanted to respond. Every team he mentioned (except maybe Oregon St)from the Pac-10 has won the Pac-10 championship in the last 10-15 years. In many of those years, that team was highly ranked and in some instances got passed over by some teams that only got ranked high because so many writers are from the East. You can only really claim that there are three bad teams in the Pac-10, about the same ratio as bad teams in every major conference.
Stop speaking to the "top-to-bottom" and concentrate on the teams individually. I don't think many of those SEC teams would really like to have to go face Oregon, Cal, USC, and UCLA out west right now just as much as I don't think the Pac-10 teams would like to do the same with the SEC.
This is why matchups like Cal-Tennessee are great no matter the score. You have two teams that could potentially contend for championships risking it right at the beginning of the season. More conferences should do things like this more often instead of scheduling teams like Florida International (no offense to FIU, but until you win much in your own conference the SEC shouldn't be given credit for beating you).I agree that USF has come a long way. They are a team that will do well for a long time but as for speed? Check the defensive rankings, look at where the Buckeyes are? This is a reloading year for the Bucks who lost 8 people to Sunday football but if anything has improved its there speed. I would love to see a USF vs OSU BCS bowl game. I would still have to take the Buckeyes by 14. But I have great admiration for what USF has done and will do in the years to come.To be fair... i dont think Booty has had any really impressive passing games in his tenure... most of his completions come from wide open receivers... If carroll trully favors competition, lets check out what sanchez has to offer.To whoever said "when was the last time OU and Texas had both lost going into their game" ... try last year. OU lost (maybe) to Oregon at Autism stadium and Texas lost on the road to Ohio State.
Seriously, stop ripping Stewart for his opinion. Until you are distinguished enough to get a vote in the AP poll, a bi-weekly column on a nationally (globally?) recognized sports site, and a book published your opinion is meaningless. The guy knows his stuff and is not biased, unless "biased" is code for "he said bad things about my school because they lost".
My thoughts on the current top 10, copied from another message board:
Among the teams which are likely to be among the top 10 in tomorrows polls, the following matchups remain
-USC vs. Cal
-USC vs. Oregon
-LSU vs. Florida
-Ohio State vs. Wisconsin
-South Florida vs. West Va.
-Kentucky vs LSU
-Kentucky vs. Florida (consecutive weeks, BTW)
-SEC Championship game (possibly a rematch of Florida-LSU)
Lots of games are left and anything can happen. Don't get all upset and take it out on Stewart or the other (anonymous) posters here. There is still a lot to be decided this season.yes, South Florida has more speed then Ohio State. I guess thats why S.F. has more people in the NFL. Oh wait, they dont. i love when people say OSU is slow because of 1 game they had 2 months off with. Even pros said they couldnt play with that big of a layoff, and they are professionals, they were 21 yr kids.
OK, now let all the dumb azzes come on disagreeing, basically saying they know more then NFL scouts. your right mr couch potatoe, OSU is slow, and those NFL scouts know nothing haha idiots.
that said, South florida is a good team and would prob give anyone a run.To whoever says "do you really think [fill in team here] will beat [fill in any traditional power]" they show how little they know about football...To say USF or anything upstart would have no chance against Ohio State, Okla., or any other team must still be living in the 70's...Its a new world and after seeing the speed of the USF defense neutralize my Mountaineers, I nor anyone else can say they would or wouldnt lose to anyoneLets deal with the facts which normally lead us to the truth:
Ohio State Run defense #4 USF #28
Ohio State Total defense #2 USF #18
Ohio State Pass Defense #6 USF #25
Ohio State Scoring #25 USF Not in the top 50
USF is gaining ground in a hurry but legacy in not created in one season. Like I mentioned, I would love to see a OSU vs USF BCS Bowl Game.Frankly, I'm a bit tired of all the talk about which conference is "the best." Honestly, who cares? Until the AP and coaches start to make a joke out of those rankings as well, I can't see how it matters. (And if the debate makes it that far, my best guess is that the discussion has already become inconsequential anyway.)
I know Mandel uses his Power Rankings each week as a sort of "snapshot" of where each team is at the current time, but I'm going to agree with previous posts and call him out on South Florida at #4. Is there any way USF is the fourth best college team in America right now? Probably not. Several teams ranked lower (namely Ohio State, Georgia, Oklahoma, Florida, and likely even West Virginia in a rematch) might clobber USF at the moment. Perhaps in another 5 weeks we'll have a clearer (muddier?) picture of how the season's going to finish.
To BuckiJerry -- as a fellow Buckeye, I agree completely with your call for an OSU v. USF BCS game. But then again, I also got excited when Florida made the title game last year over Michigan ...
Ohio State hasn't had any real tests yet, so I'm going to save my unbridled enthusiasm until after a couple of primetime Big 10 road games in October.Stewart... take it easy and don't worry too much about your rankings.The fact is no one cares about AP polls anymore as they are not part of the BCS rankings. And the readers should also realize this and stop complaining about Stewart's ballots...Let the BCS rankings come out and then we can start our fights... Till that, let AP pollsters like Stewart come up with their rankings because... WHO CARES??? I just hope that Stewart did not lose his sleep on this...ok, jerry, I agree that a USF vs OSu BCS game would be a good one. However the facts you presented are not fair. OSU(And I say this with some resignation as a Buckeye fan myself) has not played anyone real yet. They knew this would be a rebuilding year and thusly scheduled cupcakes early to help a team that certainly would be loaded with underclassmen. To a point I dont disagree with the decision, that BCS money looks great coming in when your school is going to recieve the lion's share. However, even though I am excited at the prospect of them being #4, I dont honestly believe they arethe 4th, 5th or even 6th best team in the country right now.
The remainder of this season will prove what the buckeyes are really made of. Starting with Purdue (current #23) on the road (always a tough game, ask the 2002 natl champ team), 5 of the last 6 opponents could be ranked at game time as opposed to 0 of the first 5. Penn State might not be if they continue their slide, but I see, Michigan State, Wisc, Illinois and yes Michigan being in the top 25 at kickoff. The Big Ten isnt as strong as it was a few years ago, but it isnt as bad as advertised either. Condsider the fact that potentially 8 of the teams in the conference could be ranked for at least a week during the season and that even with Michigan's disasterous start, they have had 3 seperate top 5 teams in the polls, a statement no other conference can yet boast, not even the vaunted SEC.
I know the arguements are coming and I welcome them....that is exactly what these forums are for and exactly why i love college football above all other sports. Passion and team/conference pride drive us to defend our team or conference even in the face of blantant adversity.
And should LSU lose next week, OSU will jump them in the polls despite the fact I dont think on any field even the Shoe itself, could OSU beat LSU. but given the nature of the polls and the fact that a loss very often (obviously not always) destroys your hopes of a natl title. What a great sport!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!ohio state md 2009, well said. Like you said, USF is probably not the 4th best team in the land, but they are getting their reward of the moment for what they have done so far (beating Auburn at their place and handling WVU at home) this season, and no matter what conference or team has your allegiance, that isn't too bad.
As always, time will tell as the majority of the top fifteen teams will be different come December because they all play each other.
Then, the play on the field will decide it (for the most part anyway) like it always does.
And for the record, USF, West Virginia, Kentucky, or others like them might lose more matchups than they win with the likes of USC, LSU, etc., but they could just as easily whack them on any given Saturday as well. But then again, that could be said of just about anybody. So where does that leave it all. Yea, play the damn games.To buckijerry
OU Run defense #7 CU #29
OU Pass defense #40 CU #13
OU Total Defense #6 CU #14
OU Scoring #3 CU #76 (but amazingly Michigan is lower than that)
The point is this, you look at these stats and you would have to assume that Colorado more than likely was going to get smacked around. But that didn't happen. You can't just look at the stats right now to judge who may win.First to Shriram....Stewart has a right to stress over it because even though the AP is not involved in the BCS, it does form the base in which the Harris and Coaches polls are voted on (check them side but side when all are available, with some minor changes here and there)...Second, thanks Stewart for having a poll that makes sense (except for Oklahoma over West Virginia). I don't know why the rest of the writers couldn't have seen the logic that you had in your choices....And lastly, is it me or did we just see the first days of BCS Armageddon go down this weekend?Mandel,
You should really read your own column (blog). What you have already written about and know is that to win any college football game is a tough task. In making your AP rankings you need to follow that. You are doing is the absolute thing that you are writing about. Your AP ballot should reflect each teams performance each week on the FIELD and NOT who this team beat and how big this win is over that win.
The ABSOLUTE #1 criteria each week is DID THE TEAM WIN. No matter who they play. Did they win?
Any criteria after that can be debated but week after week you don't do that. You keep ranking teams based on YOUR INTERPRETATION of how strong they are based upon common teams, etc. Get back to basics and use the #1 criteria "DID THE TEAM WIN OR NOT", then go an play analyst.
Ranking 1 and 2-loss teams really says that these teams have free passes to lose games and still get ranked high. A LOSS IS A LOSS. Ask Michigan. Unless the writers or NCAA start mandating schedules you cannot penalize a team if NO ONE WANTS TO PLAY THEM. If you poll coaches or AD's from the BIG conferences NO WAY would they willingly schedule or play the Boise St's, Hawaii's, or Cincinnati's? NO WAY. So if a team play's "nobody", rank them higher according to their play on the field and MAYBE the big boys will start to play the mid-majors DURING the season.
Nothing against the SEC or all the major conferences but Mandel and all the other AP writers need to establish a solid #1 criteria for voting. DID THE TEAM WIN.
A TRUE Football fan tired of teams not playing it out on the field...That's right...who cares about which conference is best (even though almost half the AP top twelve are SEC teams--count'em, FIVE.
What matters in Baton Rouge, LSU is at their rightful place in the AP Poll (the one that dissed us in 2003, although we still have that big trophy).
Ironically, the coaches haven't come around yet.
As for Cal, I guess someone has to be third, but they give up almost four touchdowns per game and they've played one team still ranked. But then no one in the PAC 10 plays defense but USC and they're pretty average.
BTW, LSU has given up four touchdowns in their last--what is it?--22 quarters and that includes three ranked opponents.
We've had our red zone penetrated four times this year--and we're complaining about that.
If you want to beat us, you'd better hold us to ten points or so, cause you're probably not going to get much more than that.
BTW, we can play offense too.South Florida lacks respect b/c they are the new team on the block. Even though they are the second (maybe first b/c all Florida has is Tebow up the middle and nothing else) best team in Florida. They have only beat 3 ranked teams in their last six games!
Kdog - if you are watching the game right now (Giants vs. Eagles) then you see Mitchell on the Giants playing OLB and Reed on the Eagles returning kicks from THE University of South Florida. We also have Henry on the Cowboys and have 5 or 6 more on other teams that do not start. Not bad for a team only a decade old. Look for Mike Jenkins and Trae Williams to be playing cornerback in the NFL soon along with others.
buckijerry - those OSU stats are great but you have not played anyone yet. Those stats include Akron and Youngstown State. South Florida has played Auburn and West Virginia with two Heisman hopefulls on offense (even though Slaton has done nothing in 3 years against us. Pro scouts may need to realize that Slaton cannot deal with South Florida's speed). That being said I would not want to play OSU at home but hopefully South Florida can keep rolling and they will play an "old" established school in a bowl game. A lot of games to go for that to happen though.
I am estatic that South Florida is number 6/9 in the country but I hope they stay focused and not let it go to their head.
To Florida fans - Why will you not play us in Tampa? Miami signed on for five years of games in Tampa and Miami on Thanksgiving. You guys signed on only to play at the swamp. Do you guys ever play an away game outside of your conference? You seem to have 8 home games a year. There should be rules about this but I still think it would be a great game this year. Your one and only weapon Tebow against our fast defense. If Grothe played well you would be very worried. I may be bias though since I HATE Florida.
Go Bulls!!!!The polls are bogus in the first place. After the (somewhat) legitimate preseason polls, it all rests on wins and losses. There is no better example of it than West Virginia this week. A top six team, national title contender, loses ONE GAME to a RANKED TEAM ON THE ROAD and drops TWELVE SPOTS. So they are below Kentucky, Boston College, and a whole host of other teams who are good but not West Virginia good. Florida also dropped significantly after losing to a good Auburn team (yes, it was a home loss, but it was an SEC loss). Is it just me who doubts USF, Kentucky, and BC as top ten teams? Top 20, yes. But I like to consider myself a pretty avid college football fan and i haven't heard of one player on Kentucky's defense. And why is South Carolina ahead of Virginia Tech? They both have up in the air QB situations, but VT has a dominating defense while South Carolina has one dominating linebacker..who is gone for the season. Why is it about wins and losses instead of common sense? Missouri better than Texas? Cincinnati better than Rutgers? Virginia Tech, West Virginia, and Florida are much better teams than Boston College, Kentucky, and South Carolina. There are too many examples in this current poll, which might be the most inaccurate ballot I have ever seen. The fact that your standing in the poll can hinge so much on one loss is absurd.Don't go ragging on Kentucky now... They've fought very hard to get to their current position, and are led by arguably the best Quarterback in the nation.
Simply put, their offense puts them in a position to win every game they play. To assert that Florida, or any team for that matter is instantly better than Kentucky simply because of their traditional status is ignorant.
With that said, I think we'll see soon enough how "real" this Kentucky team is, with 3 big upcoming challenges in South Carolina, LSU, and Florida. The way I see it, Kentucky has an opportunity to walk away from that series with only 1 loss.Stewart,
I don't get all the dumping on UNC. I mean, at 1-4, I don't exactly expect you to call the team "good," and "young and inexperienced" certainly fits, but this team is too intriguing to be just "bad." Despite all the dumping on the talent level, Bunting did leave behind two top 25 recruiting classes from the last four years. T. J. Yates is a serious star in the making, and has three top shelf wideouts to throw to. Yes, the OL and the RBs are all babies, but they're also showing measurable improvement every game, as is the very young defense.
I'm not saying we're (oops, sorry -- they're) even going to make the Hormel Meats/Quikie Mart Bowl, but I would give them a better than average chance of upsetting South Carolina or Miami or Georgia Tech (Chan Gailey's always good for a choke job) this year. The yardage totals at VT weren't flukes.To trey1030 and all of the football = life southern folks, So when did Arkansas, Vanderbilt, South Carolina, Kentucky won lately and Georgia and Ole Miss haven’t won anything since 60’s and 70’s. I admit that the SEC has had more winners but comparing Alabama and Oregon as equals is stretch at best. Oh and Washington split a national championship 17 years ago so you might leave them out :)as painful as it was to watch the USC game, in some ways a sophisticated college football observer would have to be impressed. To play your 5th string CB, 3rd string LB, have 2 starting o-linemen injured on the same play in the 1st qtr (the center no less - leading to a fumble snap giving WA a TD), in the rain, against a team wearing 1960 WA throwback jerseys, creating 16 penalties (a couple key ones unwarranted) - have 2 RBs gain over 100 yards, didn't even give up 200 yards- don't know how a voter changes their vote given LSU was sluggish early against a very weak opponet - unless of course the voter actually didn't watch the game. Teams lose these games, and USC won. Impressive. i feel sorry for Stanford next week.Granted, I am a South Carolina homer, but ranking UGA over SC and Kentucky in your extreme makeover AP edition is ludicrous. SC beat UGA at UGA. UGA has beaten and average Alabama team and Ole Miss but who else. KY stands on the shoulders of a road win at Arkansas and a Louisville team that fields a JV defensive squad.
Furthermore, South Florida #4? Come on. The AU team that beat on the Plains wasn't quite the same team that beat UF last night. And they beat an over-rated WVU team without their starting QB.
And ranking FSU? Who have they beaten?You can't survive in the best conference in the nation (SEC) without a running back. We finally saw how good Tim Tebow is when he goes up against a legit SEC defense. He cant run the ball 30 times a game and be successful. Eventually they start to catch on. If he tries to do that against LSU, Kentucky, or Georgia his ass will be in the dirt ALL DAY!!!To Jonathan,
UGA won a nat'l championship in 1980. Correct me if I'm wrong, but that's after the 60's and 70's. And while there were no national championships in the early 2000's, they did post a string of 1-2 loss seasons (including SEC championship and bowl games, making 13 total games). Lumping them with Ole Miss shows some serious ignorance, as the two programs are not even in the same ballpark.South Florida beat WVU with Pat White in the game. He played the first half of the game and WVU only scored 3 points. The backup played better than he did.
And of course it wasn't the "same" Auburn team that lost to South Florida AT home as was the one that "beat" Florida. Give me a break. Maybe South Florida's defense is that good that it makes good teams not so good.
Once again...South Florida has beaten 3 ranked teams (1 at home and 2 on the ROAD!) in their last six games. Is there another team that can say that?
Maybe South Carolina should be rated higher than South Florida b/c they have beat who other than Georgia? Nothing against South Carolina b/c i like to watch them and actually like Spurrier now since he is not with the Gators!
I know South Florida will not get any respect b/c you have had to have a football team for the past 100 years to be taken seriously. All they can do is keep playing and hopefully keep on winning.
Go Bulls!So let me get this straight....You move USF to #4 (I wouldn't go that high, but top 10 mos def.), Florida St. joins the bunch, K-State, CU, Clemson, and Cincinnati all come in. And you leave Nebraska out? I mean really, THEY LOST TO USC! Had a bad rebound against Ball State (Who is handling opponents very well atm) and they smother ISU. There is no way that CU or KSU beat Nebraska this year, seeing how they both come to Lincoln. Florida beats 'bama (which is reeling and not as good maybe as we all thought). Either you can't stand to have half of the BIg 12 in the rankings or you are seriously ill. I've stuck by your writing and analysis, but this is pushing the loyalty line a bit Mandel. Think about it again.stevendungan,
Reread what you wrote and think about what common sense actually means, please: "Why is it about wins and losses instead of common sense?" By your thinking, Notre Dame would probably be ranked, right? If college football, heck all of sports, isn't about wins and losses, what exactly is it about?This to kdog and his comments - THE University of South Florida graduate Kawika Mitchell (#55) OLB for the Giants just scored a touchdown on a fumble! Only 7 seasons in Div. I and South Florida DOES have some players in the NFL. (see prior posting)
Go Bulls!I'm transplanted Pacific Northwesterner currently living in Columbus, and I get a chuckle out of seeing all these Buckeyes trumpeting their esteemed football team. In my estimation, 95% of all Buckeye supporters are complete homers with little care or understanding of football around the country. It's a crime that anyone is ranked ahead of the Buckeyes, but they can't tell you who besides USC and LSU (yep, their football knowledge extends to schools that have recently won championships)is ranked ahead of them. Just last year a colleague walked into my office and asked "do you know what the most popular college football team in the country is?" My response: "wouldn't that be Notre Dame?" After a brief silence he said, "errr, yeah, but there was THIS survey that has Ohio State #2". Number two in Ohio maybe. In the five other cities that I've lived in the US, noone gives a hoot about the Buckeyes. Must've been a survey of his dad and brother. Just the other day I ran into four or five OSU fans debating the merits of their beloved Buckeye. Of course, noone knows how this little no name school name Cal dares to be ranked ahead of the Bucks. None of them even knew that Cal is the athletic name of UC Berkeley. Even more amazingly, none of them even knew where Berkeley is, or that it's only the best public university in the nation. They don't care, because their lives revolve around football.
You've probably gathered up to this point that I don't think much of Ohio State's ranking. A slow team playing in the slowest major conference in the country need to be ranked in the teens until the bowl season.nice poll....i pretty much agree with all of your rankings, as opposed to this weeks Coaches Poll (which does count in the BCS)..
How is K-State unranked and Texas is 16th, Virginia Tech 14th, and Nebraska 23rd? If the coaches would've watched games the last few weeks of these teams, then they'd realize that they just need to re-set their polls, and assess everything from the games that have been played.Marc,
You'd rank K-State? They beat a overrated Texas team and lost to Auburn, no matter if the Tigers are 2-2 (they beat Florida at home, so call it a bad 2 weeks). But I do agree with the rest of your comment.SEC fans crack me up. They keep saying ... "look who we have to play." Well guess what, Florida, Auburn, Georgia, South Carolina, Alabama and Kentucky are all overrated. Quite acting like every weekend is a big game.
Florida lost at home to a team that lost its too previous games to South Florida and Miss State.
Georgia is ranked for beating an Alabama team that was ranked for beating Arkansas. None of those teams really ever beat anyone out of conference. It's just a bunch of mediocre conference teams that keep bumping each other off and trading rankings.
The two wins that catapulted Kentucky? Louisville (how big was that win really? - see: Syracuse) and Arkansas (see above).
Had these teams not been overrated in the first place, there would only be two or three SEC teams in the polls right now.Chris said "Florida lost at home to a team that lost its too previous games to South Florida and Miss State."
You always forget to look at what the SEC does out of conference, year in and year out. That Auburn team you mentioned that lost 2 (not too) games at home also beat Kansas St.b-
obviously, yes, it's about winning and losing. i was writing quickly so let me clarify. in the polls, coaches/writers look at a few things- overall record, conference record, strength of schedule- but week in and week out the two things that determines a team's poll position is what the team did that week and what the team's overall record are. In an ideal voting world, pollsters would judge a team's position using their 3 most recent games, in conjunction with their overall season performance and a splash of common sense. Obviously, if voters were instructed to do this, it would be mass confusion- what if a team opens a season being blown out but is 3-0 the last 3 games?- but it would lead to clearer, more thought out votes, as opposed to the standard "they lost, so drop them down ten spots" method used now. Michigan, for example, is obviously not the top 5 team people thought they were. But they are a top 20 team. Maybe even a top 15 or top 10 team. however, in the current system, if everyone in front of them wins, it wouldn't be "fair" to jump michigan over Smallconference State just because they don't lose. Michigan had a horrible two weeks to open the season, but I'd bet if writers were to start from scratch with their ballots and look at the last three weeks, they'd see a Michigan team that shut out a poor but not FIU-poor Notre Dame team, beat Penn State using outstanding defense, and beat Northwestern while showing their QB situation isn't nearly in the shambles people thought it was. Another consequence is that West Virginia would not be punished so severely for losing at Southern Florida if they win 63-20 two weeks in a row. And if Southern Florida starts losing games in the thick of their Big East schedule, it's going to look a little premature making them a top-6 (or top-4) team.
Maybe you got this or maybe you didn't or maybe you thought it was just plain stupid. But the point I'm making is if you're going to rank teams based on the "what have you done for me lately" school of thought, one week is not a large enough sample size. West Virginia did not suddenly not become a top five team just because they lost at Southern Florida.There is a reason most consider the SEC the best conference. Because year in and year out. We defeat most of our opponets out of conference or we post a very solid bowl record. Do we win everygame...No. But we dont let teams embarass us and usually we hold it down pretty good. GO look at our last years bowl record. The proof is in the pudding. The only other conference with any real consideration is the teams out west. They are lightning quick on offense. They have zero D but you have to outscore them to beat them. It is SEC 1 with the Pac 10 not to far behind. Its a mute point with most because everyone is biased to the conference they pull for but its college football and as we seen this weekend. Anything can happen.Football Ranking
#1 LSU
#2 USC
#3 Cal
Nobel Laureates
LSU ranked so low they call it "third tier". Nobel Laurates? ZERO
USC ranked #27 as an educational institute with ONE Nobel price winner
Cal ( University of California Berkeley ) ranked 21st and with 20 TWENTY Nobel Laurates.I don't envy anyone who had to complete a ballot this week so everyone gets a pass. But the only poll that really matters is the one at the end of the season.
The rabid fanatics crack me up . . . everyone, especially 21 year olds are allowed to have bad days. And more often than not, it is the game plan rather than the execution that is at fault.
When ranking conferences, I compare the current year's team to the prior year's. In the Pac 10, Oregon, UCLA, USC, ASU, Cal, Washington and Stanford appear better than last year with OSU, AZ and WSU looking worse. The Big 12 North has stepped it up and the ACC will be conference to watch next year. They've improved incrementally, but with all the coaching changes I expect more improvements next year rather than this year. The SEC fanatics may be annoyed, but it looks as if AR, TN and FL have weakened. MI, Vanderbilt, Miss St., SC, KY and GA remained about the same and AL and LSU improved (mostly due to improved confidence). I'm not sure about Auburn yet, but before this week they would have been on the 'gotten worse' list.
BUT WHAT A GREAT YEAR IT'S BEEN SO FAR!Regarding Stewart Mandel's comment about delaying polls until after October 1, it would make make much more sense to eliminate them entirely as a means of determining the National Champion. Polls amount to beauty contests that have very little bearing in what would actually happen if the teams were actually able to square off against one another in a tournament. If you don't believe this, you only have to look at NCAA basketball where there are polls and a tournament. Since seeding started in 1979, teams ranked #1 in the nation in at least one major poll going into the tournament have only won the championship 5 times. In this same time period, number 1 seeds have only squared off against one another in the championship final 5 times. In all other cases since 1979, some lower ranked team won the NCAA basketball championship including two teams that were unranked going into the tournament - Villanova in 1985 and Kansas in 1988. What this all adds up to is that pollsters, whoever they are, have very little idea of who the best teams are. The is very little reason to believe that football is any different from basketball in this regard. If indeed it isn't possible to have a playoff in NCAA football, why is it so difficult to acknowledge the truth that there is no national champion?I noted that the apparently new student poll (suppoll.com) that sets its ranking based on the average of votes by student editors and students provides sometime a ranking that appears to be more accurate than other professionally run polls. It may be of interest to analyze the insight of the students' ranking versus that of the professional analysts.Enough of the "look at what the SEC does out of conference". Look at all the 2007 SEC schedules and you will see that almost to a team, they all schedule 3 games out of conf the likes of Western Carolina, La-Monroe, La-Lafayette, North Texas, New Mexico St, Troy, Chattanooga, Houston, Tenn. Tech, Western Ky, Kent St., Middle Tenn., South Car. St, Richmond, FAU, FIU, Eastern Ky.
Basically, out of conference the SEC schools do what all schools do, schedule cream puffs out of conference and then play their conf schedule. When you add in Mississippi, Miss. St, and Vandy you can pretty much make all SEC teams 6-0 from the get go. So, when you really look at the SEC they are kind of like big foot, a Myth.
Don't come back with how tough it is in the conference and how they beat each other up. Guess what, a conference means you play each other every year so you are going to beat each other up just like every other conference.
And as far as bowls (ie: out of conf) The Big East was 5-0 in their bowl games last year.Well Hank, welcome to C-bus. We lack a major league team, and people here actually care about our local university. In Los Angeles, the Bay Area, Seattle, Minneapolis, and New Orleans (5 of the many other cities I've lived in), there are multiple teams to focus on at any one time.
Can we go overboard? Sure - who doesn't? Only difference is it's all aimed at a single team here, instead of spread out over multiple teams (the weekend we played Washington, there were more articles about the Seahawks than the college game). We have one of the largest stadiums in the country at 105,000 and we sell it out constantly, whereas Washington couldn't sell out a stadium 25% smaller.
I'm not defending my fellow poisonous nuts, but for all the spirit we show, there's an inordinate amount of hostility toward us, much as there is against Notre Dame (at least we're winning our games).
What I'm saying is that assine statements such as "95% of all Buckeye fans are homers" is the sort of thing that just fuels us. In other words, you're just as big a homer yourself (and who do you root for anyway - care to share?)
As for "slow" - listen to ABC/ESPN commentators, or even just Washington's Ty Willingham who, when asked about his team's usual speed advantage said that against Ohio State, his wasn't the faster team on the field.
We don't deserve to be #1, but we're definitely a top ten team this year.To Hank:
Let's not over generalize here. When you talk about "95% of Buckeye Fans" please acknowledge that you are talking about the fans in the same town that live, breathe, and eat Buckeye football. People do leave Columbus and appreciate football teams all over the country.
To the people obsessed with USF having "too much speed." Ohio State always has "fast" players from Florida on the roster. Last year, the fastest guys on the team were from... Cleveland.
That being said, due to the weather, the Big Ten has tradition for slow, plodding football that lends itself to the comparison (and some coaches still stick with this style). Thanks to global warming though, there aren't quite as many games with snow, so times are a-changin'Yes, USF is a nice story, and I'm not trying to rag on their team but there are way too many bandwagon jumpers here. We are only 4 games into a 12 game season. In college sports you can beat anyone on any given day (Ex. App St beats UM in the Big House but can't beat Wofford...who is Wofford?). The win at Auburn was nice but Auburn, every single year, has one great win, becomes overrated, and then has at least two mental blocks somewhere during the season. Yes, the WVU win was nice, but you're not going to beat any LEGIT national contender with 5 turnovers. I'm going to venture a prediction here...USF has at least 3 losses by the end of the regular season, probably 4, and plays in a bowl game that you can only watch if you live in South Florida or have ESPN Gameplan. And please, whoever says USF has more speed than Ohio State (who I hate) is mentally challenged. If USF had to compete year in and year out in the SEC, ACC, Big Ten, Big 12, or Pac 10, they would be in the basement every single year. It's just the way it is.Hank:
I also live in Columbus, and like another poster find your comments pretty asinine. In MY estimation, a very good percentage of folks here are in fact very aware of the different schools, capabilities, etc. Just because we like OSU doesn't mean we don't know a lot about other teams. I'm assuming you haven't made a very good personal adjustment down here because your comments reek with bitterness. Yeah, we're proud of our Buckeyes but that's because we're FANS. I think you need to build up your self-esteem so the next time people can't tell you all about the northwest, you won't get so upset. A little less Starbucks wouldn't be a bad idea either.
P.S. The "slow team, slow conference" stuff is already old...you might want to read other blogs to come up with something more original (and way more truthful, as many non-Big 10 teams have found out).Nate:
I really appreciated your post and the tenor of your comments (it's so refreshing when someone is actually NOT beating their chest). I'm sorry you hate OSU, but I guess pretty much everybody has teams they hate, so that's probably the nature of the game. I'm a Big 10 fan, (undergrad at Purdue, grad school at OSU) but primarily a Boilermaker so I've had to have patience over the years. In any case, I think USF is a great story, and I wish you and the team nothing but the best in the weeks ahead. And I think USF and OSU would be a great bowl game!Hey kokopelibuckeye, do some research first before making a claim. You said UW didn't sell out Husky Stadium for the OSU Buckeye game. Capacity is 72,500 at Husky Stadium. Attendance for OSU vs. UW -74,927. Third highest attendance in stadium history. GO DAWGS!!!Lex,
This is a SPORTS blog...surely even a Nobel Laureate would know that?Stevel:
I agree with your comment about rankings, but something has to be done to get a champion, which is why the tournament idea eventually, hopefully, will be put in place. Plus, how realistic is it to think anyone other than a handful of voters actually SEE the teams enough to make a valid assessment? Instead, they likely (and understandably) rely on reputation, history, numbers of players sent to the pros, seeing a great play on a highlight reel, etc. You see much the same thing in other ratings/rankings as well (e.g., for universities, business schools, etc.). I know I'm echoing what about a grillion other people say, but "let 'em play". Then at the end of the season, it is what it is and we congratulate the winners...because they without a doubt earned it.Reading all of these comments is insanity at its best...At this point all of the paid experts have been right about only two teams, USC and LSU. Neither of them were impressive winners Saturday and like Flordia the week previous showed some flaws in their armour.
Regardless of where our individual loyalties lie all teams good and bad are not going to play to our level of expectation week in and week out. Most teams that have won National Championships have had a game in their season in which they stuggled against what everyone deemed a gimme....So being critical of any team or conference at this point is nothing but ENVY because your team isn't being talked about...by the way why didn't Wofford get any votes after beating APS?????????Stew:
I must type . . this is the first time that I have agreed with EVERY one of your "five things we learned." I also have empathy for you on that ballot issue (I would not have relished the task) and think you did very well.
Lex:
Impressive list of Nobel Laureates there at Beserkley. Truly. I thought this was about football, and not Stockholm Square Dances . . but whatever. You need to know that there are many ways to rank University Academics, and some of them are a lot better than listing folks who have chosen to retire to CA in their "Golden Years." But hey . . let's be fair . .
Put them on the football field to play LSU and/or USC and we'll see if you are right.This post has been removed by the author.This post has been removed by the author.Gr8pumpkin, the following statement was posted by Seattle Times reporter Bob Condotta the day before the OSU-UW game two weeks ago:
"Like just about everyone, I expect a close game, and a Husky Stadium that figures to be its most raucous since the 2003 Apple Cup might be enough to pull the home team through. (The attendance could top 72,000 for the first time since that night)."
Guess that means it took Ohio State coming to town to give Washington its first sell-out in 4 years. Glad we could help out.
To Larry - I have to ask - who will you be pulling for the night of October 6th? ;-) Should be a fun game regardless.The sixth thing we learned this weekend: The end of the world is here. Kentucky is actually ranked in the top 10. Go Gators.The only pac 10 that has never won a conference champioship is the university of arizona wildcats. With stoopid as coach it will not happen. Oregon State has won a conference championship and played in the Rose and Fiesta Bowls.To Chris,
You have no good evidence of the SEC being over-rated. The SEC is, in fact, a very tough conference. Unlike you, however, I will actually back my argument up with EVIDENCE. Here is a great pile of evidence from recent years:
1)UF beats FSU almost every year now.
2)UGA has beaten Ga Tech 6 years in a row.
3)A Tennessee team that is middle of the SEC pack split a home and home series with the PAC 10's number 2, CAL (and whereas Tenn. blew Cal out last year, this year's game was close).
4) LSU clobbered Va Tech, and beat Arizona and Arizona St. the last few years.
5) UGA beat Va Tech last year in the bowl game and thumped OK St. in the opener this year.
6) Auburn beat Nebraska last year, beat K St. this year and lost close to a very good USF team (made it closer than the WVU game, for sure).
7) Kentucky beat Clemson last year and Louisville this year.
8) S.C. also won its non-conference games last year against Clemson and Houston.
9)2007 national title game (UF and OSU)
10) Alabama beat Hawaii last year
Though the conference can't win EVERY game against legit non-conference opponents, they do win most of them. How can a conference that usually wins be overrated. What does that make the other conferences...crap?You better recognize USF!! They have all of the FLA talent that the BIG FLA 3 didn't get or missed. So I say USF is here to stay baby!
Tampa is great place to go to school recruits!!Polls in college football are one of the hardest things to make, so I don't envy Stew's job or any writer's for that matter, especially when you get everyone heated about their team getting "no respect." There is one way to gain respect: win. if you think your team isn't getting the respect in the polls well they should have won more. I am a firm beleiver that there should not be a one-loss team ahead of an undefeated team, even if the one-loss team seems to be a far superior football team. Because up to that point in the season the undefeated team succeeded every time. when it comes to judging the teams in the same loss category, I feel they should be ranked in order of "best loss" for me that puts Oregon ahead of Florida and Texas and WVU ahead of all three because their loss was away and it was pretty close (also was without Pat White for a while). But I think USF deserves to be ahead of all of these teams because they have answered the call every week, something that FLorida has not done, so, at least for now, USF is having a better year than Florida and should therefore be rewarded in this years polls with a better ranking.
I realize this way of rankings would give teams a reason to take a turn toward the SEC and schedule cream puffs out of conference but hey, I know my system isn't perfect. Part of me wishes there were a way to have a solid aggreed ranking system in college football but another part of me doesn't because I do so much enjoy the banter and debate after each week. I feel like it is part of the culture of college football and I don;t know if I would want to change any of it at all.
I can't help I need to take a jab at the SEC before I sign off: This year is most certainly the year that the SEC is more top-heavy than the Pac10. There, I said it. LSU is raw, I will admit that. THey have played like the #1 team in the nation and I would not want to play them period and I know Florida is good, they just had an off day but beyond them I don't see that much out of the SEC. Kentucky is surprising but I'm not convinced yet. Auburn lost twice and I haven't been impressed at all. I think they just have Florida's number. Georgia, Tennessee, Alabama, Arkansas and South Carolina are so overrated its not even funny! This arguement of beating eachother up is a joke. They are all bowl teams because they usually get 3 out of conference walks in the park along with Vandy, Miss St, and Ole Miss. and then can trade a couple wins with each other through the year. viola! 6-7 wins in a season, easy, and a bowl game. the Pac-10's got Oregon going to Michigan, Cal visited Tennessee, USC visited Arkansas last year and went to Lincoln this year. ASU is 5-0 right now and except for a very strange no show against Utah, UCLA has been impressive. UW is a solid team and you never know OSU beat USC last year. All in all the Pac 10 is more loaded top to bottom this year.
Except for the fact that I think I would take LSU over anyone right now. And that is hard for me to say.This post has been removed by the author.The SEC isn't overrated, but they have had a hard time beating Wisconsin over the last couple years. We can't compete with the speed of Auburn and Arkansas...yeah right! I just wish we could beat on the SEC in some colder temps instead of playing them in their warm and comfy climates.While everyone tends to rip Wisconsin for "struggling" in its games, let's not forget that they are still undefeated. They are doing what it takes to win. They are doing the exact same thing that Ohio State did in 2002: Beat the competition but don't embarrass them. They ended up being the National Champions (be it on a horrible pass interference call the ref knew he got wrong, but that's beside the point). No one ever game them a chance, I certainly didn't.
Everyone loves to rip on South Florida as well. To each his own, whether one wants to jump the bandwagon or not. I've officially climbed aboard (as a person claiming they belong in the top ten, not as a fan). Beating Auburn on the road (ranked 18 in the polls at the time) and defeating West Virginia, a Top 5 team, are both convincing enough to me.
Yes, I'll dare say, the way they've been playing this year, they can beat Florida, Wisconsin, and Cal.
To those USC fans saying Pete Carroll should relegate Booty to second string, two words: Shut up! As long as Booty wins, you should be grateful. Perhaps Petey should start a true freshman who will make REAL mistakes and cause USC to be blown out of the water on their own turf. Perhaps that would be a good way to swallow your words.As a California resident and Pac-10 fan, I'm ecstatic about the new respect, but lets not put the nails in the SEC coffin just yet. That Auburn team didn't get any gifts, but just symobizes the depth of that conference. What's up with Big 10? They got pretty exposed in last year's bowls(remember the folks campaigning for OSU-Michigan for the championship game). Wisconsin was under-appreciated last year, but I think they are over-rated. We get Big Ten Network on Direct Tv basic(go figure, you have to buy Pac-10 coverage)! Wisconsin didn't look so impressive against the Citadel, and they just barely escaped this week. We'll see if Big-10 can play in December and January!
Taylor; I believe your concerns were addressed by USF two weeks ago when they beat Auburn, who then beat Florida, who knocked off OSU in January. Oklahoma????? They've got some explaining to do! Oregon has trouble against tough defences, have you seen USF play? Can you spell D? The Bulls are getting some make-up respect for last year when they're ravaging of the Big East powers went unrecognized in the polls. Hey, it's week 4, at least they didn't lose to Colorado!!!!!!Although Wisconsin wins have been less than impressive, the fact of the matter is that we are still undefeated and riding the longest winning streak in the nations, even before this past weekend. In saying that, we could easily drop one to Illinois this weekend. The thing that is so upsetting however, is that if the likes of Florida, Oklahoma, Texas lose a game to an unranked weak team in their division or out of their division, we hear the old, "well, they just had a bad game, go easy on them". If Wisconsin loses to a weaker team, "stop the presses-we knew those badgers are overrated". Listen, we've been thumping the SEC and PAC 10 teams in bowl games since the mid 90s. I agree, we are not pretty, but a few beers later, we look good enough to take home.The double-standards that SEC fans apply to their "logic" are just truly staggering:
If YOUR conference has a weak two or three teams at the bottom, it's because it sucks ... but THEIR conference has three guaranteed wins every year (Vandy, Ole Miss, Miss. State), a Kentucky team that, until this season, has been clueless for 30 years, and two distinctly average programs (Arkansas and South Carolina), one of which finally had to stop playing USC because they kept giving up 70 points to the Trojans.
If YOUR conference has a history of teams knocking each other off and crowning different champions, it's because it's clearly weak ... but in THEIR conference, it's okay because everyone is "so tough."
If a team from YOUR conference beats an SEC team, there will be enough excuses coming to nearly clog the internet ... but if THEIR team wins, it's just another indication of the SEC's "superiority." See Cal-Tennessee, 2006 and 2007.
If a final score is high in YOUR conference, it's because "no one plays any defense" ... if a final score is high in THEIR conference, it's due to the "offensive genius" of a $3 million coach and an offensive co-ordinator named Jimbo, Bubba, or Spanky.
It's time to get over yourselves and your over-rated conference, SEC fans. Your rhetoric is really wearing thin and it doesn't stand up to scrutiny from anyone who actually knows a little bit about football.
A final note to the jaw-droppingly whiny LSU fans out there: you got lucky in 2003, boys. You should be happy with your tainted title, because USC would have run your "student-athletes" right out of the stadium. And I can only imagine the level of whining you'd be doing if it had been YOUR team that had finished No. 1 in both major polls but had not been given a chance to play for the (so-called) national championship.
I don't want to close on a negative note, though, so I'll wish all the SEC teams good luck in their games this weejend. Who are y'all playing? Wofford? Florida Atlantic? Samford? Western Carolina? The New Mexico Girls School for the Blind?This post has been removed by the author.What happened back in 2003 was an unprecedented debacle, yes. But let's look at it this way: USC did not play in the National Championship game, LSU did. LSU is crowned the National Champs after beating Oklahoma. USC is awarded the "AP National Championship" by being #1 in that particular poll. Fair enough, they both earned it.
Now this is where things get interesting: The following year, USC, Oklahoma and Auburn are in the exact same scenario that USC, LSU and Oklahoma were in the following year, only this time they are all undefeated. USC and Oklahoma both go to the National Championship game, leaving Auburn heartbroken. USC smashes OU and Auburn wins their bowl game, leaving them both undefeated. To be fair, Auburn should be awarded a share of the championship as well, right?
If USC gets to be considered the "champions" of 2003, Auburn gets to have fair treatment, and be recognized as the co-national champions of 2004. Sorry, USC, you should have beaten Cal. You have no excuse for losing that game.
Dukester: Arkansas and USC signed a home-and-home contract with one another, they never decided that they would continue to play annually like Michigan/Notre Dame. It has nothing to do with USC smashing the Hogs in both games.
They didn't "stop playing USC", they only had the 2 games scheduled against one another to begin with.USC was a "champion" among sportwriters in 2003. LSU won it on the field.
To argue that LSU was "lucky" in that year, and would have lost to USC is absurd given the history of the meetings between those two teams.
Auburn was short shrifted. I think they could have succeeded, and their lost championship season was nullified and their championship granted in my log.
We need a rational playoff system in college football.Congrats to South Florida on a couple of big wins so far this year. Don't get too excited about your big jump in the polls though. The media is just looking for another "Cinderella story" like last years Boise State. I also would like to congratulate the media for giving us all something to argue about until it all works itself out at the end of the year.The Pac-10 is the most top heavy conference in the land - USC, Cal, and Oregon are all legit top 5 teams. USF deserves some consideration as a top 5 team as well, as no one else has two wins as good as at Auburn and vs. West Virginia at this point in the season.
And please, could we stop the now annual game of overrating Big Ten teams? Neither Ohio St. nor Wisconsin has proved anything except against middle of the road Pac-10 teams. Honestly, has Wisconsin played anyone in the last year plus?
for some real rankings, check out www.tokenwhiteguys.netwell, after decades (try first Cal game in 1963, first student section game in 1970 and season tickets since 1977) of saying that the Almighty created Cal football to break your heart, Cal football is a subject of nationwide discussion. however the season turns out, you have no idea how long those of us Cal grads wanted the football team to be somewhat noted like the academics.Five things that I now know about the Big Ten this year.
1. Ohio State is easily the best team in the conference, however, they would only be the fourth best team in the Pac-Ten, and third best in the SEC.
2. The Big Ten will not fill its bowl obligations and may not win a bowl game this year.
3. Illinois is going to finish second in the league followed by Wisconsin, Michigan State and Penn State.
4. Penn State is at a tipping point. The defense has to be sick of losing games they should easily win despite their efforts. For the fourth time in five years the offense cannot not pull its own weight. If the offense does not turn it around soon, their may be a snow ball effect.
5. The Big Ten has now replaced the ACC as the worst BCS conference as no team deserves a top ten ranking.I'm just glad to see the 'Noles offense finally get going. Think the QB change will be permanent?
I loved seeing UF lose the way they did. I think the timeout at the last moment was bush league, but the freshman came out and hit it again.
Go Noles!Per ShawnJax: "Basically, out of conference the SEC schools do what all schools do, schedule cream puffs out of conference and then play their conf schedule. When you add in Mississippi, Miss. St, and Vandy you can pretty much make all SEC teams 6-0 from the get go. So, when you really look at the SEC they are kind of like big foot, a Myth."
Now for the "Big" East conference: Southeast Missouri St, Maine, Temple, Murrray St, Mid Tenn St, Grambling St, Buffalo, Norfolk St, Elon, Florida Atlantic, Western Mich, Miami-O, Akron, East Mich and of course U-Conn, Pittsburgh, Syracuse and West Virginia.
Every conference team has skeletons in the closet.From a source that has seen both the PAC-10 and SEC at a level that most fans cannot fathom:
"The SEC is like playing in the Pac-10 with four or five USCs,"
Rich Brooks, Current head coach Kentucky Wildcats - Former Head Coach, Oregon 1977-1994.
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/blainenewnham/2003913137_newnham30.html
I figure he ought to know better than anyone. Thus endeth the lesson.Thanks for sticking to your beliefs and ranking teams according to how you felt they were playing, and not simply moving teams up or down from the first poll to the last.
I especially thank you for dropping under-performing teams like Wisconsin, who despite winning, should not have slided up simply because everyone else lost. I totally agree with moving USF into the top 5, but I would disagree and say that UK should be in the top 10 (but hey, when they beat UT, UF, and USC, then you can move them).
I am glad that the AP poll is no longer in the BCS because it brings the poll back to what it was originally intended to be: a fun, meaningless thing to look at in the paper on Monday morning.I have a Gamecock bias, so take this as you will. There is no way Georgia should be ranked higher than South Carolina. There is just no way to justify it. They beat them head to head. Georgia had a good road win, Carolina has a good road win. Georgia has an SEC home win, so does Carolina. Here is why USC should be ranked higher than Georgia. SCs loss was on the road to a top five team. Georgia loss was at home to a top 15 team.
I know its a hard thing to figure, but this little part should be pretty easyIt's probably about time to _begin to_ recognize Michigan despite its early 2 losses? No? Not too sure if Hawaii can beat it.
Also, though I agree Oregon is a top 10 team, one of its glaring weaknesses that people don't seem to see (same goes for WVU) is that their running actually sets up their passing. You stop the run in the running quarterback and he'll start to make bad throws. The reason seems quite obvious to me: if defenders are indecisive between covering the receivers and covering the QB, they'll definitely leave the receivers open, thus facilitating the throws. Make a decisive effort in stopping the QB from running and he'll have less open receivers to throw to, and he'll make bad throws. Cal's done that to Oregon 2 years in a row.trey1030, yet another rant about SEC's supposed supremacy. Wake up, dude! Except for LSU, no one is scared of any other SEC team now, Florida included. How can you let an inferior team go into _your_ house and beat you up like that? Auburn is inconsistent at best. South Carolina, excuse me. They don't even know which QB to "use". 'Bama ain't there yet. UK still unproven (I dare say that). In other words, they're mediocre.
One thing these SEC guys don't seem to realize is that in-conference games are in general very tough. SC can go into any non-conference team's home and wipe it out, yet always (repeat, always) have a harder time doing that in conference opponents' home courts. That's because we all know one another too well, so it all boils down to playing a good, no-mistake game to get a win. ASU, UCLA ain't no walk over to win at their home courts.
You obviously didn't follow other conferences, otherwise, you'd realize that UCLA was the reason USC didn't get to play in the national championship last year, and Arizona was the reason Cal didn't go to the Rose Bowl last year.For those of you who do not believe in USF's defense here are a few things to remember:
Ben Moffit LB started the season on the Butkus Award watchlist. In week 5 he received Walter Camp's National Defensive Player of the Week Award. By collecting 2 interceptions, 1 returned for a TD.
George Selvie DE has 9.5 sacks and 16.5 tackles for a loss in 4 games this season. He also received Walter Camp's National Defensive Player of the Week Award in week 4 of this season.
Nate Allen was named the FWAA/Bronko Nagurski National Defensive Player of the Week in week 2 this season with 1 int and 2 forced fumbles.
Mike Jenkins is considered by some as the top CB prospect for the upcoming NFL draft.
There are several other very good players on defense, but to say our defense isn't very good with 3 National Award winners on it in 4 games played I think is completely ludicrous. I do understand that several of you are upset that USF is now in 6/9 since the program is only 11 years old and been in DI Bowl Division for 7 years (if my memory serves me correctly), but now is the time that you should realize this team is here to stay.I am a loyal alumni of USF and have more than a few things to say about "my team".
1) There is no bigger USF fan than I
2) I agree that we deserve to be ranked
3)USF defense is quick and lethal and one of the best out there
4)The offense has a lot of talent but Grothe has a lot to learn. He makes "things happen", but he also needs to learn when there is nothing there and dump the ball
5)USF has got to stop with the penalties. We have wayyyyyyyyyyyyy too many every game
6)USF has a ton of potential, but we have to stay hungry if we plan on STAYING ranked. We get "soft" sometimes
7)USF isnt a fluke, but we have huge consitancy problems.
8)Yes we could probably take down more of the "traditional elite powers" on any given game day but penalties and stupid mistakes also make us vulnerable to a loss to even the lowly mid-majors.
USF has come lightyears for a team that has been in existance for about a minuet and a half... But until we get "dialed in" with consitant and penalty free play, we will always have skeptics
What do we HONESTLY deserve?
USF = Ranked? Absolutely
USF = Top 10? Probably considering the moment...
USF top 5? Not until we get more consistant and stop with the penalties and mistakes that we should have learned to avoid when we played pop warner football as kids
This team will absolutely be a dynasty in the comming years and you bet your *ss that we will be taking a National Championship within a decade or 2. For now... USF needs to avoid the "bandwagon" and stay hungry.
The lack of respect may not be warranted, but it can be a great motivator to "stick it" to those who think they are "elite" and "above a loss" to the young and future alpha male on the block.USF is a joke. They are nothing but a MAC team in disguise. Just wait until they play someone. Same with the SEC. They are WAY over-rated. I think the ACC is even better than the SEC.By play "someone" what do you mean? Do you mean a ranked team, because if you do here are the ranked teams USF has beaten since the school joined the Big East:
05-06:
45-14 win over 9/8 Louisville
06-07:
24-19 win over 7 WVU
07-08:
26-23 win over 17/13 Auburn
21-13 win over 5 WVU
So if you call 3 wins over top 10 teams and 1 win over a top 20 (SEC) team in the past 3 years nobody, then continue to hate on the new team on the block.Stewart, you know as well as I do that a number of people who post on sports fan forums are deluded and often sad coach-coaches... so lets not assume everyone at these programs want to see their QBs tossed. Also, you wrote "reply" when you mean "replay" in the first paragraph.This team would beat Wisconsin...that team would be Wisconsin.
Oh wait...no one has beaten Wisconsin this year.
Stop looking at highlights and final scores. Wisconsin is doing just enough to win right now. They are not simply getting lucky. If they manage to execute for four quarters they'll be dangerous.2 Oberservations from this weekend pass weekend games.
1) Who would the true ND fans have as their coach, their current 0-5 coach or a Washington Huskie coach who lost to the #1 team in the country by 3 points??? HELLO are you KIDDING ME!!
2)Coach Bowen probably has forgotten more football than me, but HOW IN THE WORLD, does a talented QB like Xavier LEE sit on your bench and FSU offensive problems over last 4 yrs centered around the QB position!! Please explain to me like ( and GO VERY SLOW) on how this happens!! Coach let Lee PLAY, its HIS team now till he graduates!!!Stewart, as much as i would love to comment, because there are obviously alot of Homers on here, with no real objective knowledge, i have one question. Based on your own logic, How does this shake out this way?
14 Florida
15 Kansas St.
16 Missouri
17 Auburn
Auburn Beat Florida and Kansas State. So why are they 17th. Shouldnt maybe they be 14th? Am i an Auburn fan? By no stretch my brother. Roll Tide if that tells you anything, and nothing else at least demonstrates my objectivity..But fair is fair. Auburn should be above each of those. The old Cow college down the road has earned it. For this week.what is messed up about the system is that there is almost no way that LSU will go 4-0 in the next 4. florida this weekend is in a must win situation with a great coach which is a tough matchup. then if lsu wins, they will have to go on the road to a top 10 kentucky team (top 10 by that week probably). then you throw in auburn and alabama and you have a tough 4 game stretch. i think the sec is too deep to run the table in a stretch like this. inevitably, one of these games is going to be a little bit off for lsu. i still believe that going 3-1 shows lsu is one of the best in the country. i also believe that at the end of the season, lsu would be favored against anyone in the national championship game, even if they have 1 loss and usc or some other team is undefeated.Why did Florida fall less spots than OU? Florida lost at home by a field goal and OU lost on the road by a field goal. Both lost to teams that were 2-2. I dont understand why OU fell 7 spots and Florida fell 3.Once again it is painfully obvious that pre-season polls are a joke! There is no reason at all to began polls until at least Oct. 1st and in my opinion Oct. 8th would be ideal because most teams have played 4 conference games by that time. In order to avoid another debacle like the one that occurred in 2003 with Auburn getting shut out of a national championship game due to incorrect pre-season polls for an obviously outmatched OU team. Seriously look at the amount of starters for NFL teams from the 2003 Auburn class. Secondly the Argument that the Pac-10 is a better conference than the SEC is absurd. A CAL team that barely beat a weak Tennessee team at home is ranked #3. Florida demolished Tenn. at home. 2ndly Cal beat a Oregon team whose signature win was over a Michigan team who struggled to beat the lowly Northwestern this weekend. If the top 10 Pac-10 teams played the top 10 SEC teams with five games being played at each leagues home venue. Yes home field is an advantage in the SEC it is the only reason Alabama had a chance in both the ARK and UGA games. I surmise that the Pac-10 would be lucky to win 2 of the 10 games. That is assuming Kentucky is currently the 2nd best team and would play Cal which they would probably lose. And anyone that wants to use the Argument that USC crushed Arkansas last year is suffering from delusions of granger because ARK didn't even have McFadden in that game. PS: if we are going to make absurd preseason predictions UGA and FL will have a run at the National Champ in 08 depending on which highly touted QB learns the most this year.Hey, let's face it everyone loves a Johnny come lately. But there is no way that these programs can sustain themselves for more than a year or two. Additionally, while they may be able to put talent on the field, they seldom have the depth to hang for a long season.
I love a good bandwagon ride myself sometimes, but lets get real. Teams like a WV, USF are just todays Boise State.
Until these teams can compete year after year and win conferences and BCS bowl they are and will remain flashes in the pan, that do little more than catch our eye.
By the end of the season we all will feel better as the traditional powers manage to regain control of the BCS and college football world!As an Auburn fan I can admit that the Big East is a good conference (2nd to the SEC, I do not acknowledge the Pac-10) but think Florida would (barely) beat South Florida (would be a great game), because while I know Auburn beat Florida, the Gators are still awesome, but if you look at Auburn's strengths and Florida's weaknesses, and vice versa, Auburn just matched up well against Florida (Tigers defense struggling due to offense not being able to sustain drives, with Florida's defense Auburn was able to establish drives). South Florida has the #7 defense (and perhaps they match up well against Florida also) in the nation while Florida had the #28 (yrds per game/prior to this weekend). The good thing is I think Auburn has solved its problems and even in losses had to play absolutely horrible to lose, and with a young team (3 frosh on the o-line, soph/frosh running attack and kodi burns) the future is very brightAs a proud USF alumnus and 9-year season ticket holder, I am just pleased to see all the buzz about my alma mater. I do think USF could beat any team in the country, with their odds being almost trivial against USC or LSU. But I'm also a realist, I think if we don't take care of business, Florida Atlantic could knock us off on Saturday--they have already won at Minnesota. I'm just having fun watching the whole thing get mish-moshed, and not having but a couple of solid teams at the very top, and a lot of teams scrapping for the next tier.Some of the most rational Big10 posters I've seen here. But I still think a tragedy is looming here. Namely that one of OSU/Wisc will go undefeated and displace a one loss SEC or PAC10 champ from the NC game. The winner of the OSU/Wisc game will have defeated 1, that's ONE, ranked team ( at the time they played) in the entire year (that being the other of the OSU/Wisc pair that loses that game). You can not begin to compare that with the road the SEC or PAC10 champion takes. And the odds that any of LSU/KY/USC/Cal/ASU can go undefeated are low. Of that cluster, maybe one does it. And another goes with one loss. I do not need to see another LSU v. Ohio State or USC vs. Michigan style game this upcoming January.
Secondly I think the tide is rising for an annual SEC-Pac10 bowl game. #3 SEC vs. #3 PAC10 would I think draw a better audience than the current lineups for the Holiday Bowl or the Chik-Fil-A Bowl.dukester says: "The double-standards that SEC fans apply to their "logic" are just truly staggering"
dwimmer38 says: "Same with the SEC. They are WAY over-rated. I think the ACC is even better than the SEC."
All right boys, here's some logic without double standards:
1) you cannot judge conference strength by watching intra-conference games.
2)You determine conference strength by legit non-conference games (i.e., not cupcakes).
3) if you determine (through non-conference games) that your conference is strong, then you can infer that your conference teams beat each other up because it is a strong conference.
Now that we have those premises in place, here's why the SEC is indeed a tough conference and beats each other up:
With a few exceptions, the SEC teams have flat out beaten their BCS non-conference opponents. See Kimberly's post above for numerous examples.
In particular, dwimmer38, they have owned the ACC. UGA owns GT; UF owns FSU. Va tech got beat by UGA and LSU recently. Miami has gotten stomped by UF and LSU recently. Clemson has also dropped its recent games against SEC foes (S.C. and Kentucky).
Does the SEC win every BCS non-conference game? No, that would be impossible, but the wins are easily greater than the losses (I can only think of 5 BCS non-conference losses by the SEC between this year and last year including bowl games, compared to a multitude of wins).
Ergo, the SEC is strong, and they beat each other up because of it.
Sorry to be so long winded, but I figured it would take a lot of writing to convince the anti-SEC crowd that they are misguided at best and delusional at worst.OSU fans...do you not remember all the trash you talked last year before the BCS championship game? And what happened? Exactly...so shutup.
SEC fans...you are fans of the greatest conference in the world.....go 'dawgs.for all of the sec fans to who seem to think that their conference is elite, they keep forgetting the conference has Vanderbilt, Mississippi state, one hit wonder Kentucky, overrated Tennessee, and one dimensional Arkansas. I'll take Northwestern, Indiana, Minnesota, Illinois, and Iowa over that.
ps. big ten schools are far superior academically than sec schools.To all you SEC fans out there. Ohio State has the most all-time players drafted in the 1st round with 66, then USC 65. The NFL is all about speed so how is this possible? So stop letting one game in January dictate your thinking that Ohio State is slow. It was just one game.Hank:
You are right on the money...I have lived almost equally on both coasts, but have remained a Pac 10 fan mostly because of the progressive style of play (ie no option, or I back slow, boring football)
My friends out east also know almost nothing about west coast schools or west coast football. Many of my friends still claim the big east, and big 10 to be the top two conferences in NCAA. Even the most optimistic fan of either conference can't claim that.
Most of them also pronounce Oregon...Oregone :-)
I do respect homers to some degree though, at least they aren't fair weather fans. I think the only way any of this will ever be settled is on the field. Like last year when OSU got spanked by Florida. We need some freeking playoffs!!! Otherwise, we are just going to yell at each other every year.Listen, all of you. I'm so sick of the Big Ten sucks schtick I want to gouge my eyes out. The same thing is being said about the big 10 that was being said about the Big East 3 or 4 years ago, and it's ridiculous. If an undefeated big 10 team makes it over a 1 loss Pac-10 or SEC team, that's justice. Furthermore, is it going to take a big 10 victory in a championship game for you to stop hating? I mean, the big 10 did win some games against the SEC in bowl games last year, right? All of you that drink the big 10 sucks kool aid show that you really don't know much about college football. Is the big 10 down? Certainly, but it also occupies 2 of the top 5 poll spots. But to say they don't deserve to go to the championship game just reeks of fanboy stupidity. Get off the big 10 sucks bandwagon, watch some games, and realize they're down, but they're no ACC, they're no Big East, and as of now, they're no Big 12.To PistonFan:
Regarding the OSU 2003 National Championship game and the purported blown pass interference call, it was clearly the correct call. What most people do not understand is that what they saw on TV that night was not what the ref called as pass interference -- the pass interference occured before the action shown on TV. If you recall, the pass was lobbed in, so it was in the air for a while. The Miami defender clearly held the OSU receiver while the ball was in the air. His is a pretty good link showing that the call was correct:
http://531ghostown.com/id148_buckeyes.htmAs a Buckeye fan of long standing, I get tired of hearing all the crap about the Big Ten. So I agree with Mandel's comment last week, let's add the hated Irish and get it over with. A few more snobs wont hurt, we already have to put up with Michigan, right? But here's a thought - dump Northwestern and add West Virginia as well. Now you're talking... Penn State won't amount to a thing until JoePa turns 100 and retires... but with ND and WV in the conference, maybe we could get a little more respect...A couple of comments:
I am an Oregon fan and was at the game Saturday. Tough emotional loss. But these kids will bounce back. I think USC is very vulnerable to any of the other top three PAC teams and it's not unrealistic to have a repeat of 2000 when three Pac-10 teams had one loss all to to the other top two (UW lost to UO, who lost to OSU, who lost to UW) and all tie for the conference crown and all finish in the top 10. It's also very fathomable that USC loses to both Cal and UO and possibly ASU.
In regards to the comment regarding an annual SEC/Pac-10 Bowl game, we would love it. However, two things hinder it: We have an A$$hat commissioner and secondly, geography. Right now, our third place bowl (assuming the top team is not in the NC game) is the Sun Bowl in El Paso against the Big 10 #5. Nobody can GET to El Paso, but there are no other destination bowls out west. Our number two bowl used to be the Cotton, now it's the Holiday in San Diego. If our no talent a$$ clown commissioner could figure out what is going on, perhaps we could find a good site somewhere between the West coast and the deep South, and set up something.
The other downside is that unless it is a destination, half the Pac-10 teams don't travel well. This is the main difference between the Pac and the SEC. The football isn't any different, but the fanaticism is. The ones that do travel, regardless of how the team is doing are the four NW schools (OSU, UO, UW, WSU). Cal and USC fans typically only travel en masse when the team is doing really well, and part of that is because Cal "fans" just discovered what a football is 5 years ago. They had to go ask their grandparents as they were the last to see a relevant Cal football team.Okay, even though Kelly, Prashant, and others out there are so biased that I can't take them seriously anymore, I'll add a couple more thoughts.
(1) Ohio State got it handed to them last year in the BCS.
(2) Wisconsin and Penn State, both Big Ten teams, beat Tennessee and Arkansas which are (wait for it) SEC TEAMS!!!
(2b) Over the last five years of bowl games, the Big Ten has won 8 of 14 against the SEC.
(2c) Over the last ten years of bowl games, the Big Ten is even with the SEC at 13 wins each.
If head-to-head is the only way to settle this, then I guess we do our part, so prashant should take his own advice and shut it ;-)
(3) To ramaswamy, keep on posting my friend.Oh, and I saw USF beat Auburn and NC and said that they would beat WVU. They deserve to be where they are. If they don't overlook anybody, they will win the conference and get a BCS berth.
And let's stop with the hating on the Big-Ten. Yes, some of the teams are down, but as of right now, UW and OSU deserve to be top five teams. I think UW is primed to lose two, maybe three games, but as of right now, their record (5-0) warrants their ranking.
I think for the most part, the pollsters got the rankings right this week. Except WVU dropping 12 spots for a road loss to another top 25 team, while Florida only drops 6 for home loss to a bad team, and OK drops 6 for road loss to a bad team. 1 and 2 are debatable and will switch each week but as of now, every team in the nation looks vulnerable. That's what is so great about college football. One day, there will be a two-loss team playing in the NC game.All the rants...all the baggin on this team and that team. Oh please give me another rant on OSUs "soft schedule."
Paint the picture however you want...a win is a win..and a loss is a loss. How many teams who are so superior to the bucks (in theory) lost to teams that we not even ranked? But I'm sure the logic will be these teams were much superior to the unranked teams the buckeyes keep smacking down.
Fine example is the buckeyes beating down the Dawgs...USC barely beats em...but the fact that game was close will have some sort of twisted logic that somehow deminishes the bucks win and excuses USC scare.
Like Tressel, I believe all the rants are just that...take care of business and it will all work out. Buckeyes finish undefeated...go to a big bowl game..win...and whats left to debate. This loss is better then that win...whatever...USC-Washington game was close only because USC played ultra-conservative. They seemed to decide before the game not to take too many risks, and just get out of the rain with a win.Can we please dispense with the "SEC is the best conference" nonsense? Just FYI:
Strength of Schedule
SEC: 2 teams in top 10
PAC-10: 2 teams in top 10
Big XVII: 4 teams in top 10
Total Defense:
SEC Average: 45.33
PAC-10 Average: 60.30
Big XVII Average: 45.16
Total Offense:
SEC Average: 54.33
PAC-10 Average: 41.60
Big VXII Average: 33.75
So, let's add that up...The SEC is tied for last in one category, middle of the road in another and, uh, last in a third. The PAC-10 is tied for last in one, dead last in a second and middle of the road in a third. And the Big XVII is, let's see, first in one category, first in a second category, and first in a third category.
Yeah, the SEC is the best conference in the land. Not.I know there have been a lot of conference shakeups lately, but when did they create a Big 17?Uh, I really like the 'V' key. That's why I kept putting it in there. Also, I'm not sure what the 'Big VXII' is.
What can I say? My boss kept walking in and interrupting me. The numbers, however, are correct (well, the ones that aren't Roman numerals).The point of contention I have isn't so much in John David Booty, but in Steve Sarkisian and Pete Carroll arrogantly thrusting Booty into the spotlight in hopes of showcasing him for Heisman hype. After the Trojans ran roughshod over the Huskers in Lincoln, the game plan should've been solidified to run the football down their opponents' throats. Instead Booty came out the following week and had a deceptingly good game throwing against a weak Wazzu secondary. USC was able to escape Seattle with a W despite the mediocre play of its quarterback. Sure, the bar is set high when you're replacing Carson Palmer and Matt Leinart, but USC doesn't need a Heisman to win football games with this defense and running game. Booty might have a strong arm and light it up in practice, but it hasn't translated to Saturdays.Andrew,
Those stats you threw out about defense, points per game, and all are MEANINGLESS because they are mostly gained from conference teams playing each other, not against other conference teams.
As i said earlier, you can only judge conferences by inter-conference play. Go back through the schedules and tally up the legit non-conference wins. Until then, nothing you say will mean anything.There are a few honest truths everyone should realize. First off, the Big East is strong. It's as strong as anyone and can compete with anyone. Sure, they do schedule cupcakes, but who doesn't? UF has played mediocre teams like Western Carolina and LSU has played bad teams like Tulane. Also, the Big 10 is a good conference as well. I feel they schedule better out of conference teams than anyone else, with perhaps the exception of the Pac-10, which is happy to schedule SEC teams. As for USF? They're a great team, but I'm kind of worried that they're ranked so high. It makes you worry that they won't take care of business. That does not mean that anyone has the right to disparage them. They have great team speed and they could compete in any conference. I believe I heard one idiot say they couldn't beat anyone in the ACC. Oh really? At this point USF could beat Miami and FSU, and probably play very well against BC. And a couple of guys have said that they beat an average SEC team on the road and and a Top 10 team at home and hence Kentucky should be ranked higher. First off, did Kentucky really beat up on Louisville? Like heck they didn't. Second off, USF really played hard against Auburn and the score wasn't as close as it looked. In their D-1 games this year the Bulls have forced fifteen turnovers in THREE games. That isn't an easy thing to do. Granted the offense hasn't always taken advantage, but this proves that USF can beat anyone. Could they beat a USC or LSU? That's debatable. But they can definitely beat a Kentucky, Boston College, or an Oregon. Quit relying on tradition and see a team for what it is.Here's what i don't like about strength of schedule arguments: they are based, in large part by pre-season rankings. LSU says that they beat the #9 team, for example, but who in their right mind would rank VT in the top 20 right now when they can't score on anybody? Sure, LSU held them to low points, but so did East Carolina, which got lit up by WVU, which got beat by USF, which beat Auburn, who beat Florida. So how strong does that really make LSU look?
How about Kentucky with a win over Louisville which Syracuse then did the following week for their very first win? This is the same Syracuse team that got hammered at home by Washington.
Also, I only see one Big XII team in the top 10, and two in the top 19 this week.LSU should/must beat Florida to earn it, just like USC must beat Cal and Oregon to earn it. It being the chance at the trophy. Stop whining, SEC fans. Just do your job and win out. If you lose to Auburn or UK, then you don't deserve it. If OSU wins out, I say they deserve it. Too bad I don't they will. You heard it here first.
Just like SC lost its chance at it last year, Oklahoma and Texas should never have a chance at it this year for losing to a not-so-stellar team. If Auburn turns out to be inconsistent at best at season's end, that should also rule out Florida (well, LSU will take care of them next week, I suppose). The scary thing is if USF sneaks in if they win out. That wouldn't be fair for the simple fact that they literally sneaked in while no one paid attention, whereas the powerhouses have had to defend their opportunity week in and week out when everyone is gunning at them.Geez Louise...all the "my conference can beat up your conference" bees got stirred up again...
How about people use DATA instead of opinion; objective data where head-to-head competition outside one's own conference has taken place? How about we look at conference records against each other for the last 5-10 years? Somebody somewhere has probably already done this and it would be informative, but I suppose it would take away the fun of hollering at each other.
As for ratings, do coaches and other people making the ratings REALLY have a chance to SEE the teams in action enough to make a valid rating? Maybe some do, but I'd think most don't...there are just too many teams and they're too busy. But those ratings and rankings (based much on reputation, intuition, familiarity, etc.) continue their influence throughout intra-conference play and are the basis for the "tough" vs. "weak" conference tags. Objective data from the past is the best guide to conference strength, and head-to-head competition (e.g., bowl games) will be THE accurate indicator this year. Not bluster.
And while I'll admit the Big 10 is down this year, it ain't down as much as a lot of you think, and come bowl time I think you'll see that. So Kelly, I'm glad you THINK you know those things about the Big 10. I know the Big 10 pretty well, and I also know you're mistaken on pretty much all of them.
P.S. How about some bowl games up here? I know our fans and our players can play in pretty much all kind of weather. Can yours?Would everyone stop with the Ohio State is slow nonsense. If you watched Ohio State all last year you would see it was not a slow team (see Texas game, etc). It is obvious that the 2 months off before the national championship game was too much. Watch Ohio State this year - that is not a slow team. Watch back to back OSU-Washington game than the USC-Washington. It should be obvious to anyone who follows college football that Ohio State is not slower than USC.
My Top 5
LSU
USC
Ohio State
Cal
Florida (even with the loss)michigan will win the big ten. they will win because of three words, no spread offenses, and mike hart. he is the most reliable back in the country.stewart, i really disagree with your comment that Oklahoma has been "dissappointing thus far". if you recall, everyone in the nation was expecting OU to lose to Texas and not win the big 12, all because they had no proven starters at QB. then when the sooners blew out every opponent they played, everyone jumped on the bandwagon (including you, stewart) and had ranked as high as three. then when they lose on the road by a last second field goal, you say that they are "disappointing". Considering that they were ranked #8 or so in the preseason rankings, how is it dissapointing that they are now ranked #8 again (in your own poll)?my top five is. cal,lsu,usc,wisconsin,and as much as hate to say this,ohio state. we also need to give washington credit. they hung in there and got close to beating usc.go huskiesI absolutely agree that you can gauge the relative strength of a team or conference unless you compare what they do against other conferences. So, I will try to do legit (BCS conference or name mid-major or Notre Dame ) non conference wins for this year, so far, off the top of my head. Somebody will have to help me on ones I missed.
Pac-10:
USC: Nebraska
Cal: Tennessee
Oregon: Michigan
ASU: Colorado
Washington: Boise State, Syracuse
UCLA: BYU
SEC:
LSU: VT
Auburn: K-State
Georgia: OK State
Kentucky: Louisville
Big XII:
OK: Miami
Texas: TCU
ISU: Iowa
Missouri: Illinois, Ol' Miss
Nebraska: Wake Forest
ACC:
Miami: Texas A&M
Florida st: Alabama, Colorado
GT: ND
MaryLand: Rutgers
Big East:
USF: Auburn
Cincy: Oregon State
Louisville: NC State
WVU: Maryland
Big Ten:
Ohio State: Washington
Michigan: ND
Wisconsin: Washington State
Illinois: Syracuse
Iowa: Syracuse
MSU: ND, Pittsburg
Penn State: ND
Purdue: NDSo here's a question...
South Carolina is 4-1, the only loss coming to an LSU program on the road, by less than two touchdowns (no matter what people have said, the fact is we did NOT get blown out, period.) We have the number ONE pass D in the Nation, and one of the best scoring defenses in the nation. We lose to LSU on the road, fall 7 spots in the USA Today Poll and 6 spots in the AP...Then, THIS WEEK, Florida loses to a sub par Auburn squad, AT HOME, who lost to Miss. State at home, who we owned this weekend in the second half, to go on to win by 18 and cover the spread. So can someone explain how Florida falls only to number 9 in the AP and we are number 11 in the AP and 18!!! in the USA Today Poll...has there ever been a seven spot difference in the two polls? Somebody help me out. Go cocks.So, assuming that I hit everything (and i admit I may have missed several), the conferences, head to head against other BCS conferences (so this does not include mid-majors or Notre Dame), stack up like this:
Pac-10: 6-3
Big East: 4-2
Big Ten: 5-3
SEC: 4-4
ACC: 4-5
Big 12: 5-6
So, based on real data, looks like the Big Ten may not be as bad as everybody says, and the SEC may not be as good as everyone down there thinks.David - good point. I also can't explain why Georgia is ahead of SC in the coaches poll after losing head to head. I think 11 is a little high and 18 a little low. SC beat Georgia, and yes didn't lose by much to LSU (I watched the game), but Georgia gets their ranking from beating Alabama, which was clearly over-ranked, and OK State which has one win over D-1 competition this year.
Florida is surviving on name and nothing else. I mean, my Ducks lose at home to an unbeaten team ranked 5 slots higher when the tying touchdown is fumbled out of the end zone with 20 seconds to go, yet Florida loses at home to an unranked team that lost to MSU, yet Oregon is still ranked lower.mh3c,
Great job o the data gathering. My only complaint is that the wins-losses don't factor in whether the opponnent was a basement dwellar or respectable. For example, the Big Ten gets credit for beating ND over and over again on your stats (Mich., Purdue, etc.). Not sure how to get around that problem, but beating, say, an Auburn team (by USF) looks much better than beating a hapless ND team.
However, good job on the layout.As a follow up, maybe we should just remove ND for the stats compiled by mc3h on the argument that they are not really a legit team (at least for this year). I realize that leads to a slippery slope regarding who are "legit teams," but 0-5 with hardly any touchdowns seems like a safe argument against ND being "legit."I agree that the pre-season polls were completely off, but I think they are still way off considering the odds for week 7. There are 2 teams (Illinois,Tennessee) that are favored over ranked opponents even though they are not in the top25. I think that shows that the shuffling is going to continue for at least a couple more weeks. More weeks like the one coming up will sort everything out.I did remove ND from head to head conference comparisons, and toyed with the idea of just removing them all together. For example, if you remove ND and Syracuse from the Big Ten's "quality" wins, then the Big ten is a pedestrian 3-3 against BCS conferences.
The other part was that if I removed a team that was not a top quality team from a team's list of wins, then I could not use that team's win against another conference in the stats and would thereby be harder to justify another team's quality wins.
For example, Auburn is pedestrian this year. Yet, I have to count winning at Auburn a quality win for USF and Auburn beating K-State as a quality win, especially after looking at what k-State did to Texas and what Auburn did to Florida. How much better does USF look now for beating Auburn and WVU?
And, I had to include Syracuse because of what they did in their own conference of taking down Louisville, something Kentucky also did. Therefore, that could minimize Kentucky's win.
It all get confusing, but the point is, head to head, conference to conference match-ups usually do a much better job of evaluating a conference than opinions. :-)we also get into a slippery slope that if we start excluding teams that are offensively challenged that have beaten zero or one BCS team, we start to minimize other team's wins.
Virginia Tech has one win over a BCS opponent, a 17-10 victory over UNC. The other victories are 17-7 over East Carolina (whom WVU beat 48-7), 28-7 over Ohio (Not THE University), and 44-3 over William and Mary.
So, remove the name and if I gave you those stats, would you include them in a conversation of top teams? Of course not. Yet LSU fans point to LSU beating VT as a "quality" win.To WolverineFanatic: Did you forget the whole reason you have not beaten Ohio State for the last 3 years is due to the spread offense they play? (You can include USC, App State and Oregon in this too). In fact, the Ohio State seems to be only team with enough speed (in the Big 10, not comparing to other conferences) to play the spread offense. Even Northwestern gained over 400 yards against Michigan because they play the spread.True, but USC doesn't play the spread option. They play a straight up pro-set with two RBs and a TE.That's ok, keep telling Ohio State, they are slow. They can't do it. All that will happen is the same thing that happened with Florida last year. They got mad and was tired of hearing they couldn't win and didn't deserve to be there and came out swinging against Ohio State. Likewise in 2003, the Buckeyes were 14 point underdogs to Miami, who came in with a 34 game winning streak. All they heard is they should not be there, etc. The Buckeyes win. It goes to show you never know what can happen. Look at all the upsets this weekend. I would love for Ohio State to play Florida right now.A topsy topsy-turvy weekend does NOT render "back" the Big XII North. It will be "back" when the North teams are winning the majority of their games against the South on a consistent basis. It would also help to win a couple Big XII titles too.
Mandel, you're simply an analyst (i.e., "what we learned... "), not a soothsayer.Jason, yes it's true anything can happen. That's why u gotta luv CFB. And despite my bad mouthing the Big10, let it be kown that I attended a Big10 school and admit that if OSU were to play any of LSU/USC/Cal it COULD win.
My beef is that in order to get into that game OSU only needs to beat Wisconsin. In order for Cal for instance to get into that game it will need to beat 5 opponents who were ranked at the time of the game, 4 of them in the top 15, namely TN, Oregon, ASU which will be in the top 15 and USC, plus UCLA which will be around 20 at the time it plays Cal. That is NASTY. Same with USC who simply substitutes beating up Nebraska for beating up TN. And don't tell me LSU has it any better.
But if it makes you Big10 fans feel any better, I will readily admit that the corn fed Big10 chicks are hotter than the hippie chicks at Cal.A common quote on these blogs and one often said by my SEC friends must be addressed..."They(fill in any out of SEC team) couldn't do that against an SEC defense". In total points allowed per game, LSU is ranked #2, while the next SEC team is South Carolina at #16. In total yards allowed per game, LSU is ranked #1, while the next SEC team is Vandy at #17. It seems to me that if the quote above is valid, shouldn't the top 20 list of the top defensive teams in NCAA football be littered with SEC teams? Just curious. What gives?The Book
Stewart Mandel's first book, Bowls, Polls and Tattered Souls: Tackling the Chaos and Controversy that Reign Over College Football, is available now. Click here to order your discounted copy.CommentsAll user comments must be approved by the moderator before being published. Due to time constraints, comments will only be published for the first several hours following a new post.More MandelRecent Posts
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