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SI.com college football writer Stewart Mandel shares his commentary, analysis and random tidbits on the latest developments around the country.
9/01/2007 05:40:00 PM

The Mother of All Upsets

Kevin Richardson
Running back Kevin Richardson ran for 88 yards in Appalachian State's momentous win over No. 5 Michigan
My job is to help put major college football developments into perspective for you, the reader ... but in the case of Appalachian State 34, Michigan 32 ... sorry Appalachian State 34, No. 5 Michigan 32, I feel utterly unqualified.

As Mountaineer player Cory Lynch raced down the field of the Big House with the ball he’d just blocked to put the final, excruciating nail in the Wolverines’ coffin, broadcaster Thom Brennaman began spouting off some of the biggest upsets in college football history -- Centre College over Harvard (1921), Carnegie Tech over Notre Dame (1926). I can’t speak with any authority on those contests, which took place in a whole other era long before top 25 polls, “I-A” and “I-AA” or “BCS’ and “non-BCS” even entered the sport’s lexicon.

All I know is this. In the 29 years since the NCAA formally split Division I into two separate entities, no I-AA team had ever defeated a team ranked in the AP poll. When it finally happened, it wasn’t the No. 24 team that went down. Or the No. 19 team. It wasn’t a Hawaii or a Rutgers or some other marginally respected program that just happened to be ranked.

The victim was the winningest program in the history of the sport. The No. 5 team in the country according the pollsters. Winner of 11 games just a season ago. A squad with at least four future NFL draft picks on its offense alone. Participant in three of the past four Rose Bowls. Consensus favorite to win the 2007 Big Ten title.

All of those things may still come true for the Wolverines, but one game into its season, this Michigan team has already etched itself into history for the most embarrassing possible reason -- by becoming the first ranked team ever to lose to a I-AA squad.

For everything that Boise State’s historic Fiesta Bowl win over Oklahoma said about the new era of college football, Appalachian State just trumped it ten-fold. What every coach tries to tell his players and the media every week only to be met by perennial skepticism has now been confirmed as true. No one is unbeatable in college football anymore. Anything can happen.

Granted, Appalachian State is no run-of-the-mill I-AA team, as anyone who watched Saturday’s game can attest. (Which, thanks to the Big Ten’s new network, wasn’t that many folks.) With its jitterbug quarterback, Armanti Edwards, throwing to a plethora of speedy receivers in the now ubiquitous spread offense, the two-time defending I-AA champions looked no different to the human eye than any number of similarly pesky I-A teams in recent years (Bowling Green with former QB Omar Jacobs immediately comes to mind), so it’s not like the Mountaineers weren’t a legitimate threat.

But come on. This wasn’t a high-level I-AA team knocking off a low-level BCS-conference team (like Montana State over Colorado or New Hampshire over Northwestern). This was a team with at least 22 less scholarships and one-tenth as much funding as its opponent (according to public data, Michigan’s football program raked in more than $50 million in revenue in 2005-06; Appalachian State pulled in less than $5 million) walking into a 110,000-seat stadium and knocking off a team chock full of Rivals.com five-star recruits and future NFL draft picks.

There’s no logical reason whatsoever this should have happened. But it did. And it wasn’t the slightest bit fluky.

The Mountaineers came out in the first half and simply tore the Wolverines’ defense to pieces. It was like the Rose Bowl all over again, only instead of USC, this was Appalachian State. Halftime score: Mountaineers 28, Wolverines 17. And just to avoid any confusion, the West Virginia Mountaineers were playing Western Michigan today.

For more than 28 minutes of the second half, however, the Wolverines’ defense dominated. Shawn Crable and Tim Jamison mauled Appalachian’s blockers the way they probably should have from the beginning. The secondary’s coverage tightened up. Michigan forced turnovers.

The problem, however, was Michigan’s much-touted, star-studded offense. False start penalties. Delay of games. A four-year starting quarterback (Chad Henne) throwing an extremely stupid interception in the red zone. A purported All-American receiver (Mario Manningham) catching just two passes for 20 yards through more than 59 minutes of action. If not for a warrior-like effort from banged-up RB Mike Hart (23 carries, 188 yards and three touchdowns), the Wolverines may very well have lost by two touchdowns.

Instead, they had more than enough opportunities to stave off the upset. From Appalachian State dropping a wide-open ball in the end zone and turning it over three times, to Henne’s pick on a drive that could have wound up with Michigan in the lead, to another drive that ended on fourth and 5, the Wolverines had plenty of chances to take the lead throughout the fourth quarter. And then, when they finally did (on Hart’s 54-yard dash with 4:37 left to go up 32-31), backup Brandon Minor promptly fell down on the ensuing 2-point conversion attempt. A subsequent interception by the Michigan defense deep in App. State territory only led to the first of two blocked field goals.

And then, the truly unthinkable happened. In the span of a minute-plus, Edwards calmly led the Mountaineers on a 69-yard drive, including a dazzling 24-yard catch-and-run play to set up what would end up being the game-winning 24-yard field goal with 30 second left. Even then, Michigan gave itself one last chance to win on Henne’s miraculous 46-yard bomb to Manningham with six seconds left, but poor freshman kicker Jason Gingell looked doomed the second he walked out there, kicking yet another one into the hands of the Mountaineers.

Appalachian State 34, No. 5 Michigan 32.

“It shows you we’ve got good football in I-AA,” visibly stunned Mountaineers coach Jerry Moore said afterward. “And we beat a good Michigan football team.”

Moore’s kind words will serve as no consolation for all those Wolverines faithful whose season of hope just got flushed down the toilet three hours into it. The dream season Henne, Hart and Long came back for? Done. Over.

As humiliating as the BCS bowl blowouts were for the Big Ten last January, this loss is on another level entirely. Even if the Wolverines manage to win their next 11 games and somehow rise all the way to the top two, should they even be allowed a spot in the BCS title game? Only if it’s to rematch by-then three-time I-AA champ Appalachian State. In fact, it would actually behoove the Big Ten for Michigan to be exposed as an all-out fraud very soon (Oregon comes to town next week), because if this team is truly the class of the conference, that’s not exactly a strong testimonial. One could very easily argue we are witnessing the fabled league’s all-time low point.

As for the Mountaineers, I was disappointed to learn upon calling the AP’s sports desk this afternoon that they are not eligible to receive a vote in my top 25 ballot this week. The AP poll, an employee confirmed, is officially considered a I-A poll. That’s too bad. It may well turn out that Michigan was grossly overrated, but all I know is this: There will not be 25 other teams that accomplish more this opening weekend than Appalachian State did Saturday. There won’t even be five.
posted by Stewart Mandel | View comments |


Posted: 6:40 PM   by The Dude
There will not be one team that accomplishes more on opening weekend than the mountaineers, heck, maybe not even this entire season. we have just seen something that will go down in history as one of the most astounding games in history...and an all-time low for the most-heralded team in college football history. It is hard to imagine any storyline this season being able to top the significance and the pure shock-value that this game instilled in the nation
Posted: 6:46 PM   by Foiled Again
Eligible or not, they should get your vote (and a lot of others). Let the AP get embarrassed by not counting them. ASU deserves a ranking after their display today.
This game could radically change D-1A football. 1. How did this win effect the Big Ten Network? I envision mid-westerners going bananas as they see the score crawl across the bottom of their screen, and they cannot click to the game (this SEC fan wasn't happy). 2. Could this help the Presidents/AD realize the polls aren't worth a flip and we need a playoff? 3. D-1AA will lose a bunch of money. They will receive fewer opportunities to play D-1 schools, which in turn...4. If the playoff is set, will we see better regular season games. Pac-10 vs. SEC the first week of the season?
Posted: 6:56 PM   by tbaker1983
This game was unthinkable 20 years ago. And while it's still a huge upset, anyone who's been watching the gap between A and AA could've seen this coming eventually. True, most A teams will still beat most AA teams most of the time...but while the Lloyd Carr deathwatch suddenly becomes one of the top stories of '07 college football, this is the type of game that will become more and more common over time...
Posted: 7:00 PM   by DenverMan
Stewart you are so right on this one. AP should be embarrased by only restricting the poll to 1A teams. To me this is "why you play the game". I had to keep with with the game on various websites (real good Big 10 Network no deal with the cable networks I see).

Plus as you acccurately pointed out UM out spend by 10 times, has 22 more scholarships, plus its played in "The Big House", and to add insult to injury, UM reportedly paid ASU $400,000 for them to come to Ann Arbor, MI to play this game!!

On the field, UM had its chances and did not produce, but the coaching (going for 2 point conversions??!! what was Carr thinking??!!) did not help either. ASU came to play and UM just thought ASU would give them the win......wrong. ASU congradulations on a well played game, you deserved the win.
Posted: 7:04 PM   by Nick
How far does Michigan drop? They started the day ranked #5. If Michigan doesn't drop out of the top 25, then I have no faith in the voting.
Posted: 7:10 PM   by Adam
There needs to be a rule. No championships if you lose to a 1AA squad. Period.

How embarrassed are the Michigan Men now?
Posted: 7:30 PM   by John
Lloyd Carr and his staff have grown complacent, and are clearly not capable of coaching at this level anymore.

I feel extremely bad for Mike Hart, who had more passion in him than the entire Michigan offense.

Anyone think he's still a legit Heisman contender, despite today?
Posted: 7:30 PM   by westford111
If I'm a player for Appalachian State coming off two national I-AA championships, I'd be a little insulted by the tenor of the discussion focusing on Michigan's failure rather than Appalanchia's success. It would be not only appropriate but wise to give them the credit they are due. Should Michigan play well the remainder of the season - a likely result - State's win will appear a far more valuable achievement relative to a dismal failure by Michigan. I wonder what the spread was when David played Goliath? Congratulations on a job well done.
Posted: 7:35 PM   by Larry
Yeah, the Big 10 has definitely been stronger and it WILL be again, just as the SEC has been weaker and will be again (impossible as that seems to those SEC fans with short memories). I think you do Appalachian State a disservice, however, by making this more than it is. Stats aside, the game is still played by the young men on the field, and Appalachian State has an outstanding program--a small-number upset like this seems no more improbable than an unranked knocking off a Top 10...granted, it's surprising but it CAN and WILL happen (there are plenty of stories like this in basketball as well). Previous posters have also correctly (IMO) noted that we'll likely see this again in the future.
Posted: 7:42 PM   by Ben
Hahah Go Michigan!!
How far should they drop in the polls? They probably don't deserve a top 25 polling, but they will get it anyways.
I don't see many reporters with the balls to drop them out of the top 25, but Stew i think you're the man to do it. This game will never be forgotten. Say goodbye, Lloyd.
Posted: 7:43 PM   by itsme
Bo is spinning in his grave.

Wonder where LaLaloyd is gonna be golfing this time next year?
Posted: 7:46 PM   by bluefan
Loyd Carr needs to resign. And not at the end of the season, but now. This game bore the hallmarks of all UM's losses lately. Not being well prepared and bad play calling. Hats off to Appalachian State though. I can't even imgaine how those young men felt knowing they just beat one of the most storied programs in college football at THEIR house. Congrats to them. Now my main questions are will UM fall out of the top 25 (which they should) and how will UM come out next Saturday? As uninspired as today or with passion?
To Ben and everyone else:

I already know I'll be dropping Michigan off my ballot. To do otherwise would be to rank them based on preseason perceptions that, now that an actual game has been played, are no longer relevant.
Posted: 8:18 PM   by Emmet
Hey Stu, didn't you print a letter in the mailbag over the summer asking if this one was a possibility and you wrote it off?

Don't worry it wasn't from me as I, like probably, everyone not directly associated with the Appalachian State Football Team, would have figured they had no chance either.

A great result and what a great day for Football.
Posted: 8:18 PM   by Al
I'm a UM alum, and i have never felt as bad about the direction of the michigan football program as i do know. Not only does Lloyd need to retire, but he needs to step aside now! Not only does he continue to lose top recruits to Ohio State, but he is probably the worst game day coach I've even scene in my entire life! Please Lloyd for the sake of Michigan fans everywhere and those fine seniors (Henne, Hart, Long, and Crable) that decided to come back to school, step aside, and give those kids a chance to at least have a respectable season.
Posted: 8:22 PM   by Tom
Westford111 is right on the money. If you want to understand what happened today, you shouldn't look to Michigan's failings (e.g., poor defense and a coaching staff that was caught with it's pants around it's collective ankles) but rather to the Appalachian State players and staff. They came in and outplayed and outcoached the Wolverines in spite of having 22 fewer scholarships and a budget that is only a fraction of the weakest of Big 10 programs. You can make up all the excuses in the world if you're a Wolverine, but it ain't gonna wash the taste of footpowder and crow pie out of your mouth. How about patting App St. on the back and saying "good job." Invoking lame excuses does not become the winningest program in all of college football.
Posted: 8:25 PM   by mack10zie
As an App State Alum (a proud one at that). I can honestly say, this is bigger than either of our 2 national titles. I am at a loss for words, but I only hope that fact that App State is a good team will be at least part of the story, and not Michigan's failures.
Posted: 8:34 PM   by william
Yeah. Well before the game started, as I baked in the sun at Beaver Stadium, I called this as the game of the week and not Tenn vs. Cal (no disrespect to those programs). I am not an ASU alum or fan. It is just that some 1AA teams are extremely talented and football people should have expected this game to be at least competitive. The coaches know it. The North Dakota State University Bison will be another team that shocks the world some season soon--if schools are not afraid to schedule them now.
Posted: 8:56 PM   by Lamppost
Stewart, if enough AP voters clamor for it, do you think the AP would change their stance and include I-AA teams? And can I-AA teams be invited to a non-BCS bowl game?
Even if they could play in a bowl game, I don't think Appalachian State would. They can win a third straight national title. What's more exciting, that or playing in the I-could-care-less.com Bowl?

Go Mountaineers, that was awesome.
Posted: 9:10 PM   by Neil
And can I-AA teams be invited to a non-BCS bowl game?

Lets not get crazy here. To go into the Big House and win is a decent accomplishment for most 1A teams, let alone a team from 1AA. It shows the work the staff have put in, the dedication of the players and a little bit of luck.

However, lets be truthful. We could replay this game and Michigan wins 9 times out of 10.

Awesome acheivement by the Mountaineers, I was chuckling walking up Clark St in Chicago looking at drunken and despondent Michigan fans.

The Wolverines should be unranked and frankly, if they somehow end up in a BCS game, it shows just how much the system stinks.

BTW, as i type DeShawn Jackson of Cal has just pulled a Reggie Bush type punt return. The kid is incredible.
Posted: 9:11 PM   by ishan
I am a UM alum, and find it disturbing how everyone is focusing on firing Carr.

Everything is pointing to this being Carr's last season in any case, so as Michigan fans we shouldn't be making this about firing Carr, but more about salvaging whatever is left of the season.

I know it seems improbable right now, but we all know Michigan isn't as bad as we looked today. The Oregon game is key - a win there and we're back. We lose, and the season's over.

National Championship is out of the question. Rose Bowl is a distant reach. But let's back up our boys instead of whining about our coach, who will leave at the end of the season anyway.

Posted: 9:19 PM   by Ron and Liz
I don't know how you think this is such a gigantic upset. It was a big one but only because most fans confuse D I-AA with Div II and III.
That gap has been closing for years and the pesky little mountain men have been wining big for years now.
Heck they could have played the best teams in the SEC on hte road and come close to wining. Oh.. wait.. they did, didn't they?
A-State had won the game because they played better. Watch it again. Even when Michigan gritted its teeth and got "serious" the Mountaineers played with them or better than them.

Chill, guys.
Posted: 9:20 PM   by Matthew
I'm a die-hard Buckeye, an OSU alum, and every time OSU beats Michigan, it's like Christmas comes early. But I am shocked in the manner which the Michigan faithful are jettisoning Lloyd Carr. UM has struggled in Bowl games, but they've played tough opponents. UM has struggled against OSU, but chalk that up to Ohio State's resurgence after the Cooper years. And Carr is no Cooper. He's a proven, national title winner that has done much for UM, for the Big 10, and for The Rivalry. Carr is no Cooper, and he should retire on his own terms, and not on the whim of anxious boosters.
Posted: 9:21 PM   by Michael
William - I was at Reser Thursday night as well after battling I5 traffic for 2 hours....I stated the same thing to a buddy....Michigan has all that it can handle with App State. The OSU Beavers have proven that recruiting and "coaching" 2 and 3 star athletes bring success. App State has done just that. Look at the speed of that team - enough said.

Go Beavs!
Posted: 9:24 PM   by phork

Didn't you come up with a theory about UM being ranked high in the pre-season, and not doing so well? (2005 and this year most recently) And then not being in the top15 and playing really good? (2006)

As far as I am concerned if you have a Div1AA team on your schedule, you not only deserve to lose, but you should be penalized for it in the BCS calculations. Yes SEC fans, this means most of your teams.
Posted: 9:33 PM   by Docwew
From those of us who have physically been to the Appalachian campus, and have had a child graduate from the school, congratulations!
Posted: 9:42 PM   by Phillip
Three things:
1. Any team that loses to a IAA team should be automatically disqualified from bowl contention.
2. ASU should be voted into the polls by any writer/coach who recognizes true talent. Clearly someone is doing a good job at ASU and they should be rewarded.
3. Michigan should not be ranked next week. No questions asked.
Posted: 9:50 PM   by Wilson
Phork, you're an idiot. SEC teams' in-conference schedule alone is far superior to any others. If you lose to a 1-AA team, then of course you don't belong in the national championship conversation. But elite SEC teams don't lose such games. In fact, they don't lose a whole lot of games to anyone. Just ask Ohio State.
Posted: 9:52 PM   by Matthew
And those SEC teams you love also don't win a whole lot of national titles either...only 4 in the last 26 years, two of which were shared with other teams. But that's just a global-jewish-afro-northerner conspiracy, right Wilson? Gotta love the ignorant South. Good job, ASU.
Posted: 9:56 PM   by Wilson
SEC teams miss out on national titles because of the idiocy of preseason polling. Are you really going to tell me that a Pac-10 team could go 14-0 through an SEC schedule, a la Auburn 2005? Didn't think so. I'm better than you.
Posted: 10:12 PM   by Joe
If as many claim App. State belongs in the top 25, then why don't we lambast other teams who lose to "top 25 caliber" opponents. If your going to tip your hat heavilly to App. State, then you cannot wave your finger as severely at the Wolverines if you want to be consistent. Why should Michigan immediatelly be tossed out of all bowl consideration, even top 25 consideration, if this team they lost to is among the nations elite (i.e. AP top 25)
Posted: 10:12 PM   by Salmon
Auburn 2005 was fortunate to make it through that schedule, but they were a very solid team. Nonetheless, I believe that USC still had the better team that year.
All right, I'm stopping this one in its tracks. If you guys manage to turn a post about Appalachian State-Michigan in to yet another "SEC vs. the world" argument, comments are getting turned off. Back on topic, fellas.
Posted: 10:13 PM   by Matthew
This post has been removed by the author.
Posted: 10:24 PM   by udorn94
This is exactly why there should be no preseason poll in football. As you wrote in SI last week, polls are too important to national championship hopes to have them begin before a team has played. Maybe you can have a preseason poll, but once the season starts, voters should not be able to vote for a team until they have won at least two, if not three games. That would get surprising, deserving teams into the poll sooner. And, vote for Appalachian State anyway. They deserve it, even if it doesn't count.
Ron - please say thank you to Liz for what I imagine were invaluable contributions to this posting. I'd love to get her thoughts on kick offs now taking place on the 30 yard line versus the 25. While she considers the implications, I'll pass along to you that
Appalachian State has played one SEC team in the last two years. It was LSU and the score was 24-0. If you're going to take shots, make sure your gun is loaded.

And thanks for explaining that this is only a big upset because most fans confuse D I-AA with Div II and III. Hmm? I don't confuse them and I consider this a huge upset and after learning that it was the first instance of a 1-AA team beating a ranked 1-A team. But you knew this was coming. You didn't know which teams would be involved or what year it would happen, but you knew. Man, I am so stupid. I bet my mortgage that this would never happen. It's always the smart guys like you who tell it like it is after it's happened. And I really appreciated the chill thing. How did you know that I needed to do just that? You scare me. But at the same time, I feel like you are the voice of reason I've needed along. Thank you. Thank you.
Posted: 10:30 PM   by nate
i don't think you should disqualify a team from bowl contention because they lost to a D-1AA opponent. yes, michigan should drop out of the polls. but suppose they run the table against some of the highly respected, ranked opponents they face later on? do you let a close loss to a good 1AA opponent overshadow potential victories over good 1A opponents?

i'm a buckeye fan, so frankly, i was pleased today. but i just thought i'd add some food for thought...
Posted: 10:49 PM   by skarpeti
My favorite part? Michigan paid $650,000 for the privilege, the highest amount paid by a 1-A to a 1-AA this weekend...
I agree that ASU deserves recognition, although no one is apt to forget this soon. If the polls aren't available, how about grassroots support of Amanti Edwards for the Heisman--1-AA players aren't precluded. The numbers were so-so, but the on field leadership was incredible.
Posted: 10:54 PM   by Charlie
This game points out the need to delay the polls until after 3-4 games have been played. At least for the polls that are being used in the BCS ratings.

I also found it interesting another team from last years 1-AA playoffs played a Big Ten team today and lost. Go Bucks!

I cannot imagine how any of the Michigan players feel right now.
Posted: 10:56 PM   by mikali_157
Congratulations to Appalachian State! Well done. And you have to bounce UM from the top 25. It's going to be a long, hard road for UM to re-gain respectability.

I wonder what the players are saying in the locker room and in the dorms. Regenerating their confidence and swagger is not going to be easy. But if the coaches work it right, Oregon and ND could face a dangerous team. After all, they've nothing left to lose.
Posted: 10:57 PM   by Pete
I do not think Appalachian State is getting enough respect here. If I believed everything I'm reading, I would think a ragtag group of high school kids just beat the Colts or the Patriots. This is HARDLY the case!

Appalachian State is, obviously, the best team that 1-AA has to offer. They have won the 1-AA title two years in a row and have some really good players on there. While I don't think they would be worldbeaters in 1-A, I do think that in the right situation they would be respectable and make it to a bowl.

Put another way: I would consider Michigan getting beat by some sorry 1-A also-ran like UCONN, Florida International or even Indiana a MUCH bigger upset than this. (BTW that hurts, because I am a UCONN fan). This is an upset for all time, but let's chill out on the hyperbole, just a little bit.
Posted: 11:00 PM   by GoApp
As an ASU student...This has been the best day of my life to date. As one of my friends said, "This trumps every other event in my life, like when my wife has my kids I'll be like 'sure you created another life...thats cool...but you didn't beat Michigan'" I work at a campus club, which normally holds 1,000. We must've had at least 2500 in there. Although we started to lose hope when Michigan went up, we knew that with that offense there was always a chance. I will always remember the "oh damn" looks on everyones face that final drive. People seeing what was unfolding before their eyes and just not daring to believe it, for fear it was merely a dream. However, as that field goal went through, we realized it was in fact a reality. We were damn near brought back to earth by Manningham finally living up to his hype, but still had hope because this is an App team that has blocked field goals on more than one occasion (such as when we were down to Furman in the end of the first half last year towards the end of the season, blocked a field goal, and then proceeded to dismantle Furman for the rest of the game). And as that field goal was blocked, the house went ape. People were running and jumping all over the place, hugging everyone within reach. I shook slightly for the next hour with the realization of what we had done. Even though I had to clean up after, every couple of minutes one of us would look up afterwards and say something like "holy crap...we beat michigan..." After the game, a contingency of students tore down a goal post from the field, and toured it through campus and finally deposited it in the chancellors driveway. As I type this my apartment complex and all of Boone still has people screaming their heads off, going nuts, and there is no doubt in any of our minds of two things. Number one, we're going undefeated this year because if we ever get behind coach Moore will probably just say, "well damn boys, they ain't as good as Michigan was"; and secondly, knowing that we have just pulled off the greatest upset in the history of football.
Posted: 11:01 PM   by Zane
Ok folks, As a current App State student, I have to admitt that I didn't expect this. I figured Michigan would have us by at least 2 touchdowns. We do have an excellent program here in Boone and you all should keep an eye on Edwards, Richardson, and Lynch. All of our players have worked very hard over the last 3 years and definately deserved this win today. Michigan played a hell of a game but so did we. Don't condem Carr just yet. Give him another game or two and see if he recovers. I do think it is BS that we can't be voted in to the AP poll and I say do it anyway. No, we would never accept an invitation to a bowl game when when we are a contender for our 3rd National Championship in a row. Just 3 years ago when I came to school here, we couldn't fill our 17,000 seat stadium now we have crowds just under 30,000. Like I said before, these guys have worked very hard and please give them the credit they are due.
Posted: 11:15 PM   by CUPGM
I've seen App play several times in the last few years and this team is no joke and today just proves that. Yes this is a huge upset that's no doubt but App is a good football team. They could play in CUSA or the MAC and be a team that would contend for the conference championship some years. The showed today that they are definately a good football team and I do think that the poll should allow App to be voted into the Top 25 poll and the voters should do so against the APs consent because today App played like they are one of the Top 25 teams in the nation.
Posted: 11:17 PM   by Alex Muller
From a Penn State alum,

Appalachian State: Thank you. I'll now forgive you for letting Miss Teen South Carolina enroll at your university.
Posted: 11:17 PM   by Smee
Stewart, after your attempts to get the Big Te(e)n(y) network this week, you'll love this one... 107,000 fans are watching PSU in their win over FIU. As the game progresses the stadium announcer breaks in intermittently to list other Big Ten/11 scores of games in progress. Of course every time the Michigan score is broadcast the stadium cheers. As our PSU game ends and the last 10,000 fans left leave the stadium everyone notices the TV's mounted in the concourses are showing the Big Ten network's broadcast of the UM game -- which, of course, none of us can get anywhere else. So 10,000 diehard PSU fans stand in groups of 500 around televisions in an otherwise empty Beaver stadium watching the final minutes unfold. The cheer that erupted at the end was as loud as any during our game. After 8 years of punking it was fun to watch.
Posted: 11:29 PM   by LagunaDave
ASU deserved to win today, but for Michigan, this is just a pre-season game with no Rose Bowl implications. The media have not taken over the sport completely yet. The Big-Ten championship, and the Rose Bowl berth that goes with it, will be decided on the field, not by popularity polls.

If Michigan can overcome today's awful performance against a very good team, there is no reason they can't play in Pasadena on New Year's Day. Obviously the Wolverines were badly outplayed in the first half today (and apart from Hart, their offense was terrible all game). They need to get their act together, but I would rather lose a tune-up game like this than one that matters later in the season.
Posted: 11:34 PM   by rpgoff
Makes me think of a saying that is appropriate about you AP voters. The one about not knowing the difference between something and a hole in the ground.
Posted: 11:35 PM   by HKBelonger
Forget what the AP said. Include them in your ballot!
Posted: 11:45 PM   by Paul
Just a reminder.

09/01/07 DoD Identifies Army Casualty
Staff Sgt. Andrew P. Nelson, 22, of Moorhead, Minn., died Aug. 29 in Muqdadiyah, Iraq, of wounds suffered when insurgents attacked his unit. He was assigned to the 1st Squadron, 73rd Cavalry Regiment, 2nd Brigade Combat Team

09/01/07 DoD Identifies Army Casualty
Sgt. 1st Class Daniel E. Scheibner, 40, of Muskegon, Mich., died Aug. 30 in Al Noor, Iraq, of wounds sustained when his vehicle struck an improvised explosive device. He was assigned to the 2d Battalion, 12th Field Artillery Regiment...
Posted: 12:04 AM   by sg
I don't understand you big 10 fans. Michigan's humiliation is shared by the whole conference. Why would an Ohio State or Penn State fan be happy about this loss? Don't you realize that this only makes the conference look bad? What happens now if Michigan turns around and beats you. Wouldn't you rather lose to a team that BEAT ASU? When Florida plays LSU I'll be cheering louder than anyone for a victory but as soon as LSU plays outside the conference I'll be cheering for them. In fact, I hope they go 11-1 this year as long as their only loss is to the Gators! You might be wishing for a different outcome of this game at the end of the season when talk of schedule strength starts making an appearance.
Stewart, If you can't vote for App. State in the top 25, you need to at least make them #26 in next weeks rankings. They earned that much - at least.
Michigan disappoints every season, and this is not simply Lloyd Carr's problem: this goes back to Bo. In Bo's era, he created an attitude that if you win the Big Ten, nothing else matters. Take a look at the losses to USC in the '80s; there isn't much difference from the devastating September losses that have become Michigan's singular hallmark in college ball. There is a sickness in Michigan football, and it needs to be excised now. Lloyd should be fired tomorrow for this, and with Lloyd we should send the Schebechler era of satisfying personal grudges against Ohio State rather than preparing for an entire season where it belongs.
Posted: 12:31 AM   by Kyle
This was an amazing upset. And it's only going to be more amazing in retrospect when App. St. loses to the Mighty Delaware Blue Hens and is actually seen to be the second best team in 1AA.

But until then, congrats App St.! Way to win one for 1AA!
Posted: 12:34 AM   by Jason
Auburn Kgreene couldn't be more right. 1) Everyone should have had the opportunity to see this game, especially as the drama unfolded. And most importantly 2) The gap between the top 1A teams and the rest of college football is growing noticeably smaller (Boise St. over Oklahoma already proved that). There simply must be a playoff, and soon. Anything less is totally absurd, and unfair. The college presidents must be reigned in (though it may still take an act of Congress).
Posted: 12:35 AM   by MikeM
ASU grad, class of 95 ... I think the best way to put this victory in perspective is this: #16 seed beats the #1 seed in NCAA basketball tournament ...
Most people acknowledge something like this could happen, but it never has .... until today !!
I had no doubt the goal posts would come down in Boone tonight - we did the same thing when we beat Marshall during my senior year (Marshall was ranked #1 in I-AA at the time and the game was being broadcast by SportSouth as a home game for Marshall even though it was in Boone) ...
Great job Mountaineers! Michigan probably has not had a 2nd quarter like that in a long time!
Now if only Lynch was a little faster running that blocked field goal :) *just kidding*

Michigan should not be ranked in the Top 25 - does anyone feel that they are truly one of the 25 best teams in the country _right now_ ?

I do agree with a couple of the posters who said that this could pose problems for IAA teams in future years - the big schools may not invite them for early season games ... or this will affect successful IAA schools - I doubt that ASU will receive any offers from the Big10 or Big 12 or anyone in I-A except for Wake Forest, which they play almost every year ...

Anyway, congrats to A.S.U. - you made Yosef proud!
Posted: 12:36 AM   by Blake
Stew- Where do you think ASU would rank out of the 119 DI-A teams? 75??
Words of wisdom to top 5 bcs conference teams.
1)In the Longest Yard when Adam Sandler told the warden that back in college his school would schedule a 1-AA team to destory and get the team fired up for their "real schedule" you DO NOT under any circumstances schedule the TWO-TIME defending champions because you think that their lower class ranking means that they can't hang with you.
2)you definitly do not pick a team to play who plays to your strengths(i.e. can torch your secondary)
3)TWO-TIME defending 1-AA champs.. they've won more titles and have more must win experience than most players in college football. These boys know how to win. You steer clear from these qualities in a 1-AA creampuff to start your season
4.)This one is Michigan specific...Make sure Ohio State is the only one to kiss your National Championchip hopes goodbye..
5)Note to the big ten...(michigan's secondary is weak)
6.) Michigans super seniors wasted their time.
7.) Michigan might be slightly overrated....
Paul, great reminder. It's just a game.

Here's a site - that might not go over well considering what just happened.

Posted: 1:25 AM   by Grant
Stewart - your article captured the magic of a game for the ages. Thanks for doing that for those who could not watch the game. Seeing through your eyes, I think, was just fine.

Now you have to coin a term for a team that is from a conference not big enough to be a 'mid major'. No, please don't.

I hope that Michigan does not lose another game the rest of the year, so people will have to look at this like Bob Beamon's long jump, rather than the Wolverines making a mistake, being overated, etc.

Who would have beaten the Moutaineers yesterday? Who?
Posted: 1:33 AM   by leeshay
The only thing makes since about these comments is having a playoff. And if there are only 1 loss teams left to see who will go to the national championship left Michigan should have a chance just like anyone else. Sure they lost to a 1AA team that would beat other teams in the top 25(the team they have right now) and defiantly beat lower tier D1 schools in major conference (Mississippi State, Indiana, Kansas, etc) I feel that it is ridiculous for a ranked team to lose to and unranked team and still get to the national championship (USC). In the NFL which by the way has a playoff system there have been super bowl teams that lost to what would be considered a 1AA team (because of their record that particular year) but the team goes on to win the super bowl case and point the year the Bears got SMACKED by the Dolphins but went on to win the super bowl. So what I'm saying is it is stupid, stupid, stupid, to try and weight hey they lost to a 1AA team they lost #8 team a LOST IS A LOST and whoever does not see that has been brained washed in college football by the lack of a playoff system. If you have Joe who is the best at Madden 08 according to a 100 people but you have another 100 that say Jack is the best at Madden 08 what's the only thing for Joe and Jack to do I'll give you a clue PLAY each other but only in D1 is where the debate goes on for ever (like App State's big win) about who is the best looking at who played who and who has beaten who ridiculous. People need to lay off of Lloyd go back and read his notes from his press conference this week surely if he talked about the team speed App State had and how exceptional the QB is (from my hometown G-Wood) then it has to be the players fault for not executing but with the media someone has to take the blame and we all know its the coaches. Also to all the Michigan haters out there keep it up I love it because that just reminds me Michigan is always in the hunt to win the national championship because if they were not and if they were not a top notch football program every year today’s win for App State would have been meaningless. Right about now there are no Miami, Notre Dame, and Florida State haters around because its nothing to hate on football programs are MIA especially at the U......No matter who the opponent what the outcome Go Blue!
Posted: 1:42 AM   by phork
For the poster who said that UM was concerned only with Big10 Championships and Rose Bowls, is absolutely right. No one really cares about a championship when you are the Big10 Rep in the RoseBowl..
Oh wait, maybe somebody does.

I still say if you schedule a Div1-AA team, you lose BCS points.
Posted: 2:02 AM   by Graham
Hey, I'm a wolverine alumni. After going through the years, it's time for Lloyd Carr to go, please bring with Mike De Bord. With the offensive weapons that they have for these 2 yrs, they can only manage to get the runs from Almight Hart. They should have gone. Before this game, I thought Ron English would be the one taking over Carr's seat next year, but now, probably he won't. So any idea who's going to be the next Wolverine coach? Don't tell me it's Harbaugh.

Applauds to Hart. If he keeps playing like this while hurting, do you think he can win the Heisman?

Congrats to ASU, thanks for helping us to kick Carr out.
Posted: 2:37 AM   by Eddie B
No, Michigan should not be dropped from the top 25. If as many people are saying App State deserves a top 25 ranking, then you're talking about a low 20's team beating a top 5 team, enough to knock Michigan out of the top 10 but not out of the top 25. Parity in NCAA sports is more of a reality than most of us realize. Just ask Oklahoma!

Anyway - the ranking system is so much hocus pocus. We need a tournament or a playoff!
Posted: 2:38 AM   by Scott
"One could very easily argue we are witnessing the fabled league’s all-time low point." seems a little harsh stew, considering the turnouts of the other big ten games played today (PSU 59, FIU 0 etc.) App State was simply more motivated than an overrated Michigan team, and the game should have no relevance to the strength of the Big Ten as a whole. Congrats to the players at ASU.
Posted: 2:41 AM   by sapper54
This is indeed a new low for the big ten. I saw the score during the Minn v bowlimg green game (also another low) and I thought it had to be a mistake. My wife is no football lightweight and I struggled to explain how big this was.
Posted: 2:45 AM   by Adam
I wasn't taking anything away from App St when I said Michigan ought to be ineligible for the national championship. App St is quite clearly an excellent team. That doesn't change the amount of egg on UM's face. They will always be the answer to the trivia question, who was the first 1a team to lose to a 1aa team?
Posted: 2:59 AM   by Bryan
OMG……This is the greatest day of my life. As a Senior AppState Student, my friends and I traveled over to the local sports bar in Boone (Wings-to-Go) and waited in line for two hours to get in (thank god I did). As this epic tale unfolded before us, I really thought I was dreaming. When the kick was blocked, the place went CRAZY. At that point, every student in the town of Boone went to Kidd Brewer Stadium to embark on the most memorable “goal post run” in recent memory only to end up in the front lawn of Chancellor Peacock’s home.

AppState is no joke. They deserved this win and the Appalachian Family will remember this day forever. If Appalachian’s Two National Championships, HOT HOT HOT Video or Miss Teen South Carolina comments didn’t put us in the national spotlight already, then this win certainly did.

Nobody like us,
We are the mountaineers,
Always a-winning
Always a-grinning
Always a-feeling fine,
Go Apps!
Fight Apps!
Go, fight, KICK ASS!!!!!
Posted: 3:38 AM   by FlameOfYah
The only upset that rivals this, and might arguably exceed it, in college sports history is NAIA school Chaminade beating Ralph Sampson led and #1 ranked Virginia 77-72 in 1982. That one shocked me so much I remembered the score 25 years later, but had to look up the year (time flies!)
Posted: 4:17 AM   by Eric
Congratulations to Appalachian State on the big win. One point that has not yet been brought up, but perhaps is worthy of consideration is the prospect of moving up to D-IA. App State has now won the D-IAA title, and showed that it can play with the best in the land at any level. What else is left to accomplish in the lower division? Why would the Mountainers not consider such a move?
Posted: 4:27 AM   by RRN1958
Stewart: Regarding the following:
All right, I'm stopping this one in its tracks. If you guys manage to turn a post about Appalachian State-Michigan in to yet another "SEC vs. the world" argument, comments are getting turned off. Back on topic, fellas.

Thank you. And isn't it a great day to more of a college football fan than a pro football fan? I can almost hear Jim McKay's voice....
Posted: 4:29 AM   by RRN1958
Eric-I know what you mean but I believe the answer is, simply: Budget. As in, there is no way this school can compete with the big boys in offering scholarships unless this win inspires some alums to scratch some BIG checks.
Posted: 5:16 AM   by dlrn64
There should not even be any rankings prior to a football game being played. At least then, preconceived notions of how good teams are would be gone. Michigan ranked No. 5 was a travesty. Based on what? Just BS because of tradition/name.
Posted: 5:22 AM   by Rich
Stewart, I realize Hart had a great game, but have you noticed how he never really gives credit to the team that beat him? After we beat them last year, I watched his post game comments only to see him basically say it was a fluke they lost. He made the same comments after the USC game, and now he makes the same comments after the ASU game.

I know he's a talented running back. I'm sure he has a future on Sundays. However I think he really lacks the sportsmanship to gain any respect beyond his ability.
Posted: 5:33 AM   by serge
110,000 Tattered Souls :)
Posted: 6:23 AM   by thegolfball
OK, I'm an ASU alum ('75) and still feeling pretty good right. This is all about perspective. The Apps caught Michigan in that 1 in a 100 Saturday they would win. The weight of expectation on the Michigan program is so heavy, you could see it on Saturday!!

ASU Coach Jerry Moore has perspective. He's thankful to the good Lord for his success and is getting ready for Lenior-Rhyne right now. Why? Because he knows that this coming Saturday can be their 1 in a 100!!!!
Posted: 7:17 AM   by App90
I have been watching ASU go to places like Auburn, USC, Wake Forest, NCST and come up very short over the years. With the exception of some WFU wins for reason that can actually be explained. Michigan is still a very very good team. Lets look at ASU skilled players most of them are as fast as what UM put on the feild. If UM withers then we can say maybe UM was weak, but I beleive this will wake up a sleeping giant, and will show the world how good Appalachian is. And UM will go to a Bowl Game, while ASU makes another run for the I-AA NC. Either way those UM fans were a class act, and me and my wife had a great time in Ann Arbor. Good luck to UM thier success will solidify ASU as a very good program. Go Apps
Posted: 7:28 AM   by Nursedude
If there was any doubt of how crappy a conference the Big Ten was after last years "Bow(e)l Movements" Michigan getting dumped by Appalachian State and Minnesota getting beaten by the dreaded Falcons of Bowling Green-a team that lost to Temple last year- on opening night.
Posted: 7:37 AM   by Dirty Harry
Carr has to go, pure and simple. I've been a die-hard, TRUE BLUE Meechigan fan since I can remember. Some of my first memories include family members swearing at the tops of their lungs at the TV during bowl games on January 1st! How can an upset like this happen? I'm giving Appalachian State all the credit in the world here but HOW can a coaching staff be as unprepared as what we saw yesterday??? Carr has to go. He can't beat Ohio State and his bowl record as of late is an embarrassment. All teams have to do is throw over the middle and they're guaranteed 25+ points against Michigan's so-called "defense". The team was simply unprepared and by the time they woke up in the 2nd half, it seemed to be too late. Plus whenever talk of Carr's retirement-firing comes up around here, people say he won a national championship TEN years ago, (and it was a half-ass one at that with Nebraska sharing it.) All I can think of is WHAT HAVE YOU DONE FOR ME LATELY??? Losing to good teams when it counts and beating up on the Northwesterns and Minnesotas of the world ISN'T enough for most of us fans anymore. Oh well, not that most of us in the midwest got to see the game anyway due to the stalemate with the wannabee-Big Ten Network's-Comcast's-Dish Network's greed. I spend $150 plus on Comcast's cable TV-internet-phone package and you're telling me I can't watch a U of M football game living 20 miles from Ann Arbor???? People should cancel cable-satellite subscriptions for this fraud. And furthermore, all teams have to do is exploit Michigan's secondary and they have an excellent shot at beating them. Plus, who is coaching the special teams here for U of M???? You're telling me a team that has 10% of the $$$, scholorships, etc. can have a defense that can block TWO field goals with U of M having a blocking line loaded with 300+ pound gorillas??? The last block wasn't even close!!! I think I could have made it in there to block that one. Oh well, I've probably spouted off a little too much here but it sure sucks knowing a season began with hope now is in the toilet.
Posted: 8:01 AM   by MikeGADawg
I dont necessarily think App St should be ranked, but maybe Mich. should just drop tween say 20-25.
Posted: 8:09 AM   by jeff
What a pathic display of football by the Michigan Wolverines. Did they have any practice sessions before this game. The coaching staff should all be fired. As a Michigan fan I'm embarrassed and pissed.

I've always liked Lloyd Carr and still do as a person but this has to be his last season and the philosophy of putting a M-Man in the coaching position has passed with Bo. We need and hopefully will seek the best.
Posted: 8:09 AM   by jeff
What a pathic display of football by the Michigan Wolverines. Did they have any practice sessions before this game. The coaching staff should all be fired. As a Michigan fan I'm embarrassed and pissed.

I've always liked Lloyd Carr and still do as a person but this has to be his last season and the philosophy of putting a M-Man in the coaching position has passed with Bo. We need and hopefully will seek the best.
Posted: 8:37 AM   by UofMfan
As a Michigan alum living in NC, I am not at all surprised. The folks here in Charlotte know all about App State and how good they are. And the rest of us know all about Michigan and how badly they can ruin a season.

I know that Lloyd Carr took Michigan to the only National title they have had in the last 55 years, but that was a decade ago. It's time for a change and Carr is not capable of going there.

Congratulations to App. State! Now the whole country will respect them. Shame on Michigan for not having the smarts to respect them too. The Michigan coaching staff will never achieve expectations because they are not winners. It takes a lot more than passion to be successful. It takes hard work, great planning, precise execution, and strong determination. Michigan has none of that and their embarrassment will continue to grow and they achieve higher and higher levels of futility.
Posted: 8:43 AM   by phork
Rich, did you play for Ohio State last year? I noted the term "we".
But you are correct, Hart is pretty arrogant. if the OSU and USC losses weren't enough, now this. Really, what can you say but HA-HA (Nelson voice).

I think it is time for Carr to step aside, it is very evident that the game has passed him by. With all that talent there is no reason UM doesn't contend for a title every year. Saying that, they need someone from outside the old UofM Boys Club.
Posted: 8:46 AM   by Steve
The simple fact is that Michigan got beat by a better team, Appalachian State University. Give ASU the credit they deserve and focus on what they did well, not on what Michigan did badly. Should the AP poll voting process be reviewed? Probably, especially if there are other teams in I-AA that equally deserve consideration. But don't demean ASU's victory by focusing on what Michigan did poorly. ASU deserves more credit than that. Those in the stands and on TV got to see why the ASU Mountaineers are the back-to-back champions they are.
Posted: 8:56 AM   by Tigerfan
I'm not a Michigan fan or Big 10 supporter (I'm an LSU and SEC fan), but I was at the LSU/ASU game a couple of years ago. While we won 24 to 0, it was definitely a tough game for the Tigers. ASU was for real then and they still are today. LSU had a strong team and we all figured it would be one of those 50 to 0 games, but ASU was a whole lot stronger than I imagine most Tiger fans expected. Yes, Michigan should be able to handle ASU, but that was a pretty good team they played. I may be mistaken, but I think former Tiger Tim Washington plays for ASU, and he is definitely a talented IA caliber player.
Posted: 9:21 AM   by C.P.
1. To put the AA thing in perspective, it's definitely worth mentioning again that MIchigan didn't choose to play a middle tier AA program, like all of the other big powers do every year. Buffalo?? If ASU was really the best that division had to offer, then they have to be thought of as competing with the likes of the lower 1/4 of I-A.

Stew - If you're dropping MIchigan b/c of pre-season "perceptions" then I'd hope you'd drop Texas far as well for a lackluster win yesterday.

Give credit to ASU. Huge win. Teh real question is "Can Michigan recover?" If Michigan wins out, they have a good chance to play for a Rose Bowl championship - and assuming USC plays in the National Title Game, MIchigan just might have a chance to win it.

This is the most embarassing moment in MIchigan school history.
Posted: 9:31 AM   by Michael
Low point for the Big 10?? Yes, Michigan dropped a smelly turd. But I'm tired of writers/pollsters damning an entire conference because of the actions of one or two teams. Wisconsin, OSU, and Penn State all look poised to have great seasons. And let's not forget that Penn State and Wisco both won their bowl games.
Posted: 9:36 AM   by Neil
Adam - "How embarrassed are the Michigan Men now?"
Pretty damn embarrassed.

John - "Anyone think [Mike Hart's] still a legit Heisman contender, despite today?"
Yes. He was phenomenal.

westford111 - "Should Michigan play well the remainder of the season - a likely result - State's win will appear a far more valuable achievement relative to a dismal failure by Michigan."
It's both, of course. But don't expect Michigan to play well the rest of this season. They won't. They'll win a few, but this will a toilet bowl season for the Wolverines.

ishan - "as Michigan fans we shouldn't be making this about firing Carr, but more about salvaging whatever is left of the season."
There is nothing left of this season. Just an embarassing farewell tour for a man who used be an excellent football coach.

LagunaDave - "ASU deserved to win today, but for Michigan, this is just a pre-season game with no Rose Bowl implications."
To paraphrase Jim Mora: Rose Bowl? Don't talk about the Rose Bowl! Are you kidding me?!? Playoffs?!? I'm just hoping we can win a game!
Posted: 9:40 AM   by JLN
The comments I see are the same thing said about mid-majors in basketball. Top I-AA school beat I-A schools every year, and always on the road. Give credit to ASU they and the other top I-AA teams are good, and can play with anyone. The problem is now I-A teams will only play lower level I-AA teams.
Posted: 10:39 AM   by Jeremy
Les Miles is the answer. He is a "Michigan Man". Any chance of him coming to AA? Let the Les Miles persuasion begin here!
Posted: 11:03 AM   by J. D.
My heart was in my throat for the last thirty seconds, like most of America. I was incredibly thankful that Lynch blocked the field goal because Jerry Moore put the upset at risk by inexplicably kicking on 1st and goal from the 5 with 30 seconds left. Even if you don't want to risk a turnover by going for the touchdown, you kneel between the hashes and spike it to stop the clock after at least taking away UM's last timeout. That still would have only been third down, meaning they could have spiked it again if there was a mishandled snap. Thankfully that boneheaded move didn't end up going down in history.
Posted: 11:09 AM   by Matthew
If Michigan wants Les Miles, they are going to have to pay the big bucks: His LSU contract requires Miles to pay $500K if he leaves the school for another coaching gig in the NCAA. However, if he leaves LSU to go to UM, his alma mater, he must pay $1.25 million. Just goes to show, that SEC schools have to extort their coaches to prevent them from migrating up North, where the real football is played :)
Posted: 11:11 AM   by BlueSkyJedi
Wow, Wow, Wow,

What a great game. Well Played Appalachian State. I mentioned to my Dad that there are probably more Hangovers in Michigan today than there are in the entire U.S. of A after St, Patrick's day!. As an Oklahoma fan I can attest to many losses that we should supposedly won and probably were capable of winning and instead lost. Take your pick. Especially with in-state rivals. The official axiom in my OU/OSU (Oklahoma State) split family is "Never underestimate the power of Hate!"

However, this other axiom is equally as valid: "Never underestimate an opponent and never think too much of yourself" If you do, you run the probability that you will be humbled, sooner or later, (pun intended).

That's exactly what happened on Saturday. It is no surprise. A very prepared and talented Appalachian State team came to play ball. The university of Michigan did not and paid.

And since I am throwing cliche's and axioms around I might as well throw a proverb from the Bible as well: "pride comes before the fall"

Vote Appalachian state in. They get my vote!

from Iraq,
Posted: 11:12 AM   by Mike
And UM was crying that THEY should have been selected over Florida last year....The University of Michigan should shut down for a couple of years and re open under a different brand.
I have to admit, through the years, I have been a Lloyd Carr apologist and excusing a lot of Michigan's uninspired play because of the NC Lloyd brought us in '97. However, after watching loss after loss after loss to OSU and then being humiliated by USC, I thought things couldn't get worse. I never realized Lloyd Carr had morphed into John Cooper. Fortunately for Lloyd, the Michigan brass will allow him to go out under his own terms at the end of the year (retirement) instead of dismissing him immediately as he has earned and/or deserves. After yesterday's lackluster performance, I don't see how ANYTHING could possibly salavge the season, not even a win over OSU. App. St. owned us yesterday. They played with energy, poise, and preparation. Michigan was uninspired, unmotivated, lazy, and ill-prepared. Not until the last 26 seconds of the game did UM play with any sense of urgency. The Big House often is criticized as being the big church, but when, yesterday, did the Maize and Blue give us cause to cheer? Mike Hart is the only guy on the team that showed up to play and he was hurt during much of the game. Chad Henne stunk on ice AGAIN. How does a FOUR YEAR STARTER fumble the exchange from the center? How does he throw an interception when he shouldn't have ever thrown the ball to begin with? How does he allow his offense to be penalized for a delay of game that killed a drive? How does our kicking team allow 2 blocked field-goals? How does our return guy fumble the ball (although overturned by replay) and then turn around and mishandle another kick allowing us to start the possession at our own 10 yard line? How do we not come out prepared for a mobile QB running a spread attack when that has been our nemesis for the last three years? I can go on and on. I hate to say it, but Michigan needs a breath of fresh air and should dismiss the entire staff and Heaven forbid, go oustide the "ranks" to get a coach. I truly believe in the old saying "familiarity breads content." App. St. deserves all the credit in the world. Hell, let's steal their coach assuming he would come here. The worst part is now we have to get ready for Oregon. I'm not so sure we will beat them.
Posted: 11:22 AM   by carl
Did you forget Wisconsin? Wisconsin won a major bowl game last year, again, and are in teh top ten. The Big Ten is a great conference that just happens to have more talent than people give it credit for. Chris Chambers: no respect until he got to the NFL. Darrel Bevell: no respect until he became an offensive coordinator. Ron Dayne: well, OK, bad example. But come on, give some love to Bucky!
Posted: 11:30 AM   by Bill
I'm a Buckeyes fan adn I hope they keep papaw Lloyd Forever.
Posted: 11:32 AM   by Bill
I'm a Buckeye fan and I hope they keep Papaw Lloyd forever. All of those Juniors returning thought they could kick they Buckeyes when they were down. Mike Hart is a Big mouth punk. For a hundred years this game will be your legacy.
Posted: 11:38 AM   by don myers
The Big Ten is a bigger loser than Michigan - their PR people better take a another look at the restrictions for TV. Also, AP can stick their rankings for this year - if they can't rank the best teams another service or agency will step to the task.
Posted: 12:03 PM   by Nicolas
The AP Poll is a joke. All teams deserve a shot at a vote. ASU does not deserve at top 25 vote, ASU EARNED a top 25 vote!
Posted: 12:37 PM   by Ben
I, too, have always been a Lloyd apologist. He has won a National Championship, has a high winning percentage, embodies sportsmanship, is a generous man who imparts knowledge and life lessons on his players, and also dedicates much of his time to charity and to the University. However, the team has become stagnant and it appears time for a change. The best choice is Les Miles. Yes, LSU is a terrific program with a rabid fan base, but it would seemingly be impossible to turn down the Head Coaching job at your Alma Mater...especially when that school happens be the winningest program in the history of college football. This would be perfect as it fits Michigan's reputation for hiring a "Michigan Man," while also bringing in a fresh perspective and a proven winner. It may cost Michigan some $$$, but it would be money well spent.
Posted: 12:40 PM   by Richard
Great article. Well said. Great points made.

Bad English:

"fewer" not "less"

"Delays of game" not "delay of games"
Now that my brain has had a night's sleep after that debacle, here's my recap:

Appalachian State is better than at least 30 D-1A programs, so this isn't exactly the craziest/biggest upset in the world ever, for all-time. Especially when you see that they have a speedy QB and a spread offense...two things Michigan has never been able to defend against. EVER.

Whoever at UM scheduled a game against a team with that kind of offense is a frickin moron.

If this kind of upset was going to happen against a big name team, the woefully predictable Michigan team was the one. Kudos to App Stae for realizing that and kicking our butts.

No bigtime team is going to play a decent D1-AA team for the next decade, so say goodbye to those million dollar road trips, little guys.

And finally, at least I don't have to wait until the final two games for Lloyd to ruin this season for me. Saved me a lot of time. I'll be tuning back in when he's gone.
Posted: 1:12 PM   by Timothy

First off, I must say, that as an Appalachian State senior working in the Sports Marketing department...my job just got a lot harder.

Secondly, I am just glad to see that our boys, who everyone counted out well before kickoff, were able to show up and do what they have been doing for a long time. They own the nation's longest winning streak, and are second behind only USC in terms of home losing streaks.

For all of you who don't believe the hype, I invite you to Appalachian State for a football game this year. Heck, I may even buy you a ticket so you can see what it means to play against the Mountaineers. Michigan found out yesterday, and the nation now knows about us.

Finally, making a move to 1-A would be a horrible decision right now for ASU. Until we are able to renovate our stadium and increase our recruiting budgets, we are best suited maintaining in 1-AA. This is just a statement of facts. However, it does show that speed evens the playing field against a team that is much bigger.

As our fight song says:
Go Apps! Fight Apps! Kick A$$!
Posted: 1:12 PM   by Timothy
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Posted: 1:37 PM   by the man
I am curious to see how far Michigan will fall in the polls. I remember a few years ago, they lost 2 games, I think back to back, and because they are media darlings, they stayed in the top 25, while other teams with 2 losses fell out.
Posted: 1:40 PM   by Nick
I enjoyed the jab at the Big11 Network. While I agree that they should've had the game on TV, and networks like that should not be stealing games in order to blackmail cable companies, I suggest Mr. Mandel made that comment simply because of the corporation he works for.
Time Warner... well, they don't have the Big11 Network. Yet, I believe they very well could have been carrying the network if they wanted to, or if they cared at ALL about fans. They only care about their profits, and somehow charging people twice the price for comparable Satellite service can't land these guys a profit.
Posted: 1:50 PM   by SaxySooner
HAHAHAHAHA. As much as I dislike michigan (I was born into a family of Buckeyes), I have to say I'm mostly happy they lost because now everyone will leave my Sooners alone. Thank you, Appalachian State!
Posted: 1:54 PM   by Orlando Matt
Ok, I've had enough. I've been a staunch Lloyd Carr apologist long enough. He just can't win the big ones, losing three straight bowl games and four out of the last five to Ohio State. And now, he can't win the little ones either. For a I-AA team to come into the Big House and do that to Michigan is just monumental, and well, inexcusable. Bye Lloyd.
Posted: 1:57 PM   by Chad
But when it's all said and done, we will STILL be subjected to the Michigan/Ohio St. game hype...as if it's armageddon in college football. The big 10 is a joke. Michigan blown out by USC in a bowl game...Ohio St. blown out by Florida...and now Michigan beaten by a I-AA team...and those are supposed to be the big 10's two BEST teams!!! Remember when people were saying the Big East should be removed from the BCS...re-think the conference.
Posted: 1:59 PM   by Iam4LSU
PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE..... write in a vote for Appalachian State and encourage ALL Sportswriters to do the same. At least force the AP to write a story about it to show all of us why a team that EARNED the recognition is being deprived of it.
Posted: 2:09 PM   by Chad
I'm just curious if Terry Bowden will apply for the Michigan job.
Posted: 2:23 PM   by Todd
Thank God there is no hideous playoff system like basketball has. The regular season means something in football. And because ASU fought and won, Michigan is down and almost out just 60 minutes into the 2007 season. If not for the BCS (which is not at all perfect), U of M would be saying "at least we're still in the top 64, we're OK." College football has it right, and it's regular season games mean something. ASU proved that, and much more, on Saturday. Go Buckeyes!
Posted: 2:23 PM   by Todd
Thank God there is no hideous playoff system like basketball has. The regular season means something in football. And because ASU fought and won, Michigan is down and almost out just 60 minutes into the 2007 season. If not for the BCS (which is not at all perfect), U of M would be saying "at least we're still in the top 64, we're OK." College football has it right, and it's regular season games mean something. ASU proved that, and much more, on Saturday. Go Buckeyes!
Posted: 2:27 PM   by Frank
Im a Mississippi state fan, thank the lord im not a Michigan fan.
Posted: 2:33 PM   by kabel
I honestly don't think Michigan will suffer in the rankings. If they do, it'll be a temporary thing. Why? Because people rank the program, not the current year's instantiation of it.
Stewart, just a comment on your article. I hate Michigan and think this looks good on them after the entire first decade of 2000's being continuously overrated and never backing it up. But what I take exception too is calling the interception by Henne "Extremely Stupid", yeah it was a bad play, but these guys are 18-22 year olds playing a game. In the NFL where the guys get millions, it is stupid. In college where it is kids put into huge pressure situations (like playing in front of 110,000 people) and get paid nothing, it should be a mistake.
Just a little perspective is all. There is not much left about this sport that makes it a game. Just trying to bring back some reality.
Posted: 2:56 PM   by G-TXS
What a great example why we need a better raqting system; if the NCAA will not establish a playoff in 1A football. Over the last 4-5 years since the NCAA has argued against a playoff we have seen more and more upsets from the so called second teer teams. The last three years we have heard nothing but how a second teer school will crash the BCS and low and behold if they haven't done as expected. I think if we are not going to create a playoff at least creat a more logical scoring system to rank the teams nationally as well as BCS. APP just proved that if we rated things in games to determine rankings we would see a more realisitic value for conferneces and teams who continually get free rankings on anme alone. This goes for bowl selections as well as BCS ranking. on a scale of 1-250 represting the majority of NCAA football teams Michigan should be docked at least 500 points while APP for going to the big house and owning Michigan should receive a weighted value for win of around 1500 points. The big question is if APP goes undefeated do we consider them for a major non-bcs bowl game? Just thoughts!
Posted: 3:05 PM   by Ray
The only REMOTELY comparable upset – in any sport – is Chaminade men's basketball knocking off No. 1 Virginia nearly 25 years ago. Go ASU!
Posted: 3:06 PM   by Ray
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Posted: 3:06 PM   by JackAttack
Warriors Rule! While I can appreciate the unbelievable upset that ASU pulled off, I can't understand why you have to denigrate programs like Hawaii in order to do so. The warriors may barely have scratched into the top 25 poll this season, but an educated observer would have to note that the warriors are a serious program led by a Heisman candidate, Colt Brennan.
Posted: 3:12 PM   by cg66079
I'm an App State Senior and couldn't think of a better way to start out my last year here.

Maybe it is true that we could only beat UM 1 in 100 times, but it happened,in some part because they underestimated our team. We have a strong, quick, and versatile offense that is conditioned to run no huddles all day long and an equally fast and strong defense to boot. As has been mentioned already, if you are going to lose to a 1-AA team, it might as well be the best in the nation that has won two National Championships back to back and is working on a third.

As for Coach Carr and his Wolverines, the future is still not written. Sure it is a devastating loss, but what defines character is what you do afterwards. Can they come back the next week and land on their feet? If so, I don't see any reason they can't still make the bowl. Sure their secondary is a little weak, but knowing where the problem is is the first step to fixing it. Don't count them out quite yet.

I am completely indifferent to the whole AP Top 25 issue. If there is one thing that is true is sports it is that stats and rating can be and often are proven wrong. The only thing that matters is next week. The past can't be changed, but you can work for the future.

As for the whole bowl system issue, I never really have liked it. I prefer the championship structure were all teams that make it to the playoffs start on an even keel. In that environment, anything can happen and it makes it that much more interesting.

Football is a game and it is supposed to be fun. When Saturday rolls around at "The Rock" you can taste the excitement and see the school spirit. That is what it is all about and that is why we play intercollegiate sports.
Posted: 3:13 PM   by Larry
An earlier post by Paul mentioning the two individuals killed recently was the best post of this thread. The rest of my two cents:

1) ASU is now getting the recognition they deserve, and they are almost certainly as good as the lower 25-35 1A teams (if not more).

2) The Big 10 is still a strong conference...don't believe me, just wait for the rest of the season. Let's hold on bragging rights until later, shall we?

3) There is so much media hype and reputational inertia that it becomes self-propogating...certain conferences are strong or weak because writers say they are, and fans say what writers say, etc. Let's see how they play each other...that's the best gauge.

4) Yeah, it's fun to argue about who's better than who...but in the end we're all on the same team. Let's try to remember that.
This is a reason why the ranking system should not start until after several weeks of play. Michigan two years ago, Notre Dame last year and many other examples demonstrate this. Also, 1-A teams playing 1-AA teams should not be allowed. I am a Citadel grad...in my four years at school our program played Auburn, Florida State, Texas A&M among other 1-A schools. We played Auburn the year they missed out on the BCS national championship game.

I respect teams like Notre Dame that never schedule 1-AAs on their schedule. It just shouldn't be allowed. That said, way to go App State (my ex goes there)
Posted: 3:19 PM   by Larry
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Posted: 3:22 PM   by Larry
Didn't see your post until after I left mine, but I wanted to tell you I (and I'm sure others) really appreciate your maturity and sportsmanship--a breath of fresh air after some of the comments left here. And you're right...what you describe is what makes college sports special, and what they SHOULD be. Tradition, sportsmanship, honor, character, and yes fun...all these things are at the heart of college football.

And on where ASU would be in 1A, who knows? Maybe higher than the middle...only way to know is to have the boys play!

Thanks for the post, and for your sportsmanship and good grace. If more of us 1A folks were the same (probably including me) there would be less rancor and the sport would be what it's supposed to be
Posted: 3:48 PM   by RFF
I only take exception to your comment about the "fabled" Big 10 not being as mighty as publicized.
Give ASU the credit they deserve. They caught THE BLUE thinking "warm up" game, a piece of cake, a walk in the park...and they got nailed, but good. Except for the Gophers who also got nailed by BG, the Big Ten did as well as any other "Big Time" conference this week.
Posted: 3:55 PM   by John in VA
Great article, Stu. I am a Buckeye fan who switched from the OSU trouncing of YSU to the ASU/Mich game. What a fantastic finish!! I know that the loss to a I-AA team will hurt the entire Big Ten conference, but I don't care. It was a great game and a great testament to the App State program and players. If App State wins the I-AA championship again, maybe they should go to IA like Marshall did.
Posted: 3:55 PM   by w74101
App State is a lot better than a lot of people think, and I do congratulate them....One person mentioned comparing this upset to the NAIA team beating Virginia....An interesting note on that game, Ralph Sampson's opponent at center happended to play against him in high school and knew how to neutralize him....Anyway, I have to give the Mountaineers their props, they played very well, and it proves what some other posters have been saying that there is less of a gap between big school football and smaller school football than many realize.
Posted: 4:00 PM   by L
Well put. Congratulations to Appalachian State! :D Great game. Everyone here in Columbus, OH enjoyed it greatly!! ;D
Posted: 4:13 PM   by Goodtymes7
I saw Appalachian St. play Umass last year in the 1-AA National Championship. I had already predicted on many sports websites this game would be a lot closer than anticipated. They run a complex offense blended with a no huddle to keep defenses off balanced. To many who follow this team it is no shock. App. St. is by far the best football program in NC this is no secret. Sportswriters and Michigan should have done their research before scheduling this game. Now they are trying to make it seem as if App. St. can't compete with other elite 1-A programs. If Michigan goes on to winout the rest of the season App. St. should be bowl eligible at the 1-A rank. If there was a playoff system ever in place the #1 seed in 1-A should host as their first game the 1-AA champs. This App. St. team will beat UNC, ECU, NCST, DUKE in any stadium on any day.
Posted: 4:13 PM   by Ryan
I know that you can't rank them in your AP ballot but maybe you could make your Power Rankings slightly different from your ballot this week by ranking Appalaichin State into a spot you think that they earned (somewhere between #5 and #25 I would guess). They are a great team and deserve to be respected more than Michigan deserves to be brow-beat. The last time I saw those guys in action was live down in my beloved Death Valley as a student 2 years ago. I thought that at the time new head coach Les Miles was letting the players have an off week but after seeing (via internet play by play and highlights) the performance in the Big House, I'm pretty sure that ASU could be a legit Div-1A team and compete in one of the Big 6 conferences. Not saying they would win any conference titles (yet) but they would contribute just as much as an Oregon State or South Carolina.
Posted: 4:21 PM   by Keepinitreal
Mr. Mandel,

I think I can put this epic upset (if indeed it is an "upset") into perspective with one word; passion, or lack thereof.

I am a long time Mighigan fan and as I read your article and some of the responses to it, I realize that I do not share the same feeling of shock as the rest of the college football world. I have more of an "it was bound to happen to Michigan sometime" feeling.

There is a question that needs to be asked and answered in the midst of the aftermath of ASU sticking it to the Wolverines; could this have happened to the likes of USC, Florida, Ohio State or Auburn? The answer is an easy no. These top of the heap programs play with too much passion to ever loose a game at home to the likes of Appalachian State. Not to take away from the Mountaineers, what they accomplished is what makes college football the best sport on the planet. But this Wolverines fan knows this would never happen to a Pete Carroll or Jim Tressel coached team and it comes down to passion. USC plays with a lit fire every saturday no matter who they play and it's a spark that Pete Carroll provides, not only to the players but also to the fans as well. You know that USC is going to handle the teams that they should handle. It almost makes me want to root for USC. I don't see that fire with Mighigan. Year in and year out I feel as though I'm waiting for the bottom to drop out, that one game or that one play that takes Mighigan out of the national title picture. I hate to be a blame the coach fan, but tell me Stew, is Lloyd Carr holding back my beloved Wolverines due to a lack of passion? It sure feels that way.
Posted: 4:22 PM   by Yo Scott
This game just proves how weak the Big-10 is. They don't play anyone of merit except themselves, and when you multiply suck by suck, you still get suck. Sorry Midwestern people. didn't mean to burst your bubble
Posted: 4:26 PM   by lsufan
This is the same ASU team that certain pro Big Ten ESPN announcers stated was a weak 1-AA opponent when LSU destroyed them two years ago. I also love how everyone said LSU did not look like the #2 team in the country by only beating Miss St. 45-0. But USC is by far the best team in the land and beat Idaho 38-10. I am tired of the media blowing smoke just let them have a playoff already. I am not saying that Auburn would have definately won in 2004 but I think it would have been a much different game then USC playing a much overhyped OU. If there was a playoff maybe USC would not have their 1 BCS championship. www.onepeat.com
Posted: 4:27 PM   by rsc36
When reached for comment, Jim Delaney stated: "Like I said before, it is all about academic standards. If Michigan had th lax standards present at App. State, we would have seen a different ballgame."
Posted: 4:40 PM   by AppDad
No respect!
There are a large number of students and alums living here in Raleigh, NC that are always amazed by the complete lack of coverage of Appalachian State in our local newspaper, the News & Observer. As an example, one would expect that when playing a team of the stature of Michigan in the "big house", that you would see some level of coverage and interest reports in the week prior to the big game. Finally on Saturday there was an article in which our local sports guru picked App to be embarrassed by Michigan 42-7.
Coverage has been nearly nonexistant even during the last two championship campaigns. Thanks to this win, maybe we can rely on the national media to get our dose of App info in the future. Thanks for the nice article, and congratulations on a fine effort from a fine program.

Posted: 4:47 PM   by kevin
this is what michigan gets for backing out on hawaii. michigan's coach chickened out on hawaii and picked up app. state instead.this cowardice shall result in hawaii having a "light" schedule and thus being disregarded by fools in power of the bowls.

go app state!
Posted: 4:53 PM   by ml_8000
SM - add this to your "why college football is better then the NFL" file. This kind of upset is great for the game. David vs. Goliath is always a great story and everyone loves the ending. The bigger they are, the harder they fall. Way to go ASU.
Posted: 4:54 PM   by Erik
SImply put UM was outplayed and, more importantly, out-coached. All of this equals a team that is truly over-rated no matter how well they do this year. Congratulations to a legendary game Mountaineers. By the way, as a Penn State Alum, all I could do is watch in horror when Pinkel and his Toledo team did the same thing to the Nittany Lions some years ago. UM fans shouldn't be so hasty to shoot the coach. I think Joe-Pa has shown us an old dog can learn new tricks. Just look at PSU's great bowl performance last year over Tennessee.
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