Talk pro football with SI.com's Andrew Perloff in Huddle Up, a forum to discuss the hottest topics around the NFL.
4/30/2007 04:16:00 PM
Why Quinn fell
The Browns traded for the No. 22 pick to draft Brady Quinn.
Brady Quinn's dramatic fall is still the story of the draft. With a day of hindsight, these are my main reasons the Notre Dame quarterback lasted until No. 22.
1. Coaches have too much pressure to win and can't take time to develop QBs: Several of the teams that passed on Quinn have short windows to be successful before eager owners call for a coaching change. It seems like every coach in the top half of the first round isn't far from the hot seat: Lane Kiffin (the Raiders' seat is always hot), Rod Marinelli (assuming Matt Millen's days are limited), Romeo Crennel, Jon Gruden, Brad Childress, etc.
2. Quinn didn't play well against pressure last season: He looked frazzled against teams with great pass rushes: Georgia Tech, Michigan, UCLA (until the end when the Bruins went into a prevent), USC and LSU. True, his offensive line had several issues, but a first-round worthy pick should be able to keep his composure. The Sugar Bowl in particular hurt Quinn (15-for-35 for 148 yards, two TDs and two INTs), because LSU has a speedy NFL-style defense.
3. Quinn didn't participate in the Senior Bowl: He missed the annual event with a minor injury, most likely at the advice of his agent Tom Condon. His absence was particularly important because he didn't end his college career well. Another Condon client, Eli Manning also skipped the Senior Bowl, but he was still taken No. 1, which might have been a mistake in the long run. Quinn's fall should be a warning to top quarterbacks next year who think about sitting out pre-draft events if they didn't end their seasons on the right note.
4. Tom Brady: Even with the success of last year's rookie quarterbacks, teams around the league still mimic the Patriots and believe they can get a Super Bowl quarterback in lower rounds. As offenses get more complex, the quarterback position is more about brains than brawn, so amazing physical skills aren't as valued in signal-callers. Again, that's why a QB's performance in a week of Senior Bowl practices is more important than the combine or any other physical workout.
5. Charlie Weis: On one hand, scouts said Quinn was more NFL-ready because he played under Weis at Notre Dame. But maybe teams thought Quinn's success was more because of Weis' acumen than the quarterback's skill.
6. Need: Teams can only carry three quarterbacks, and the teams picking between No. 10 and No. 22 this year were set at quarterback. I don't love the QB situations in places like Buffalo, Carolina, St. Louis and Jacksonville, but those teams didn't want to invest in more arms.
Have to agree with most of the comments, but doubt the senior bowl reason and assertion that he "made up" an injury. He did get injured against USC and again against LSU, so not sure there was anything made up.
The Dolphins passing on Quinn is actually quite damning. The guy Quinn hired to polish his game for pre-draft workouts was Terry Shea, who got hired as the Dolphins QB coach. If anyone knew his weaknesses it would be Shea. Also Cam Cameron had this quote about Quinn: "You kind of teach guys that are accurate to be even more accurate," Cameron said. "Can you teach somebody that isn't accurate to be accurate? I haven't had any luck doing that." -Palm Beach Post I still don't like the Ginn pick though but I am fine on the Fins passing on Quinn if they liked Beck better. DG
While I was surprised Quinn fell to the mid-20s, it's not necessarily a bad thing. He goes from one former Patriot coordinator to another former Patriot coordinator (I don't care that Romeo handles defense; he knows what type of offense Weis runs), stays at home in Ohio and is well prepared in the mental area. Not to mention, does a QB throw 75 yards on every play?
Brady Quinn does not impress me. He's a good college quarterback with whom I still have doubts as to whether he can play in the NFL. If Charlie Weis hadn't been his coach, Quinn may not have been selected until even later rounds. He's got quite a ways to go before he can play with the big boys. But now is his chance to put up or shut up. I do wish him success an hopes he makes it. Hell Eli Manning is playing in the NFL isn't he? I do believe Quinn can play at least that well.
Completely agree with the article....especially with the Senior Bowl assesment...Quinn had a bad year and based on how QB's like Philip Rivers made big moves up draft boards, it was a bad move by Quinn not to play at the Senior Bowl....
At the end of the day all of this is not material. He was drafted, he went to the team he wanted to play for, he will get opportunities to perform and he will be PAID more then the average NFL fan will every make. All one can ask for is opportunity!
Blowing off the Senior Bowl is a terrible mistake though. Look at what dominating in the Senior B game and practices did for Philip Rivers; it made him a top ten pick. If Quinn makes it to Senior Bowl week and lights it up vs. NFL caliber talent, there is no way he falls to 22. Tom Condon is a shady agent anyway, much more concerned with looking good and getting new clients than doing what is best for his current clients. Quinn has my vote for most likely to have a ridiculously long and unjustified holdout.
I agree with you Andrew. While the ND fans are saying that his slip was due to other teams not needing QB's, I think that it is clear that if Quinn was a great prospect, other teams would have jumped on him, not just the teams with GLARING QB needs. Look at it this way, would Manning or even Rivers have slipped that far? There are only a few teams that were absolute locks to NOT take a QB - Indy, NE, Pitts, Tennessee, Denver and Cards. Washington may be in there too, although I think if they viewed Quinn as really special, they would have drafted him. All other teams either had a shot at him or had the ability to trade up - and it took a team like Cleveland, who had a glaring need, to trade in and take him, after they passed on him once.
So Quinn will make about 1/3 as much as his left tackle. That seems rather funny, although perhaps that's the way it should be. Last thing any team needs is a disgruntled left tackle who feels that he makes far too little as compared to the QB.
You forgot the most important reason: Quinn was overrated to begin with. Nothing against him personally, but Notre Dame QBs always are. That is, until some GM has to put his job on the line. That's when common sense tends to prevail. Not that Quinn won't necessarily be a good pro QB, but he was never really in the hunt to be the first QB selected. No. 9 to Miami was the absolute earliest he should have gone.
I agree with alot of what you have to say, but I still think this is going to be a pick that haunts Miami for a loooooong time. 1st round quarterbacks (with the exception of Eli Manning) have been pretty dang good over the last few years (Leinart and Young in '06, Smith in '05, Rivers and Roethlisberger in '04). If Culpepper was guaranteed to return to form this season, it wouldn't be such a big deal, but who knows what we're gonna get with Daunte?
I'm a Dolphins fan and when the Browns passed on Quinn at #3 I got this sick feeling in my stomach. When the Dolphins pick came up and Quinn was still on the board I was literally getting naseous. And then when Ted Ginn's name came out my jaw hit the floor. Then I burst into a spontaneous version of the Snoopy dance of joy. I'm not sold on Ginn but I'm so so so happy they didn't pick Quinn. His college stats are a mirage that were produced by the genius coaching of Charlie Weis. Quinn won't implode like Ryan Leaf but in ten years Quinn's name will be next to Heath Shuler and Tim Couch on the list of 1st round QB busts.
When the Browns passed on Quinn I got a knot in my stomach. When he was still on the board I got naseous. When the Dolphins picked Ted Ginn I did the Snoopy dance of joy. I was so afraid they would pick Quinn. I'm not sold on Ginn but he's far better than Quinn who will someday join Tim Couch and Heath Shuler as good character guys who were busts in the NFL. Quinn success in college is a mirage caused by Charlie Weis's coaching.
Comments about accuracy at the college level are ridiculous. Most college receivers don't run exact routes. If the guy runs a route two yards too deep or short it impacts the quarterbacks accuracy. Also comparing Quinn to Russell, doesn't Russell have stats that show he had 13 TD's and 11 Int's against top 20 opponents? Not very impressive. I don't have a dog in any hunt but wait until they play at the pro level awhile before making your final judgements.
Anybody that pays attention to athletics knows this: genetics and where you come from are a huge part of the equation. Easiest example for that not being a successful recipe is Eli Manning and Brady Quinn.
People hate the Yankees for certain reasons and the Irish for almost the same.
Let's start with the ND Michigan game. Quinn throws one of his first passes of the game, hits his tight end right in his hands. Instead of a catch, the ball bounces off his hands into the hands of a Michigan defender for a touchdown Michigan. Another example of his "inaccuracy", not to mention all those passes dropped throughout the year by his other receivers, especially Rhema McKnight! But he is still inaccurate enough to complete about the same percentage of his passes as JaMarcus Russell, whose protection and receiving corps were vastly superior! True, Quinn "choked" in the '06 USC game by allowing Matt Leinart to get pushed into the end zone by Reggie Bush on the last play of the game! If the refs called the penalty, I guess Quinn would have been a hero as winning QB? Put Russell in the ND lineup with the same mediocre performers and he would be lucky to complete 40% of his passes -- although he would be able to practice a lot of those "butt throws."
The Dolphins organization is completely lost. Apparently Cameron was not the answer. Here's a team that somehow dreams that Ricky Williams will return and lead them to the promised land. So they use their #1 pick to boost a family friend. When Quinn is successful in Cleveland, what will you say?, "How could we have known?" Give me a break.
Some of these folks who say Quinn is overrated must not pay too much attention to the game, the talent on each team, accuaracy, etc. Quinn simply fell past the dumb founded Dolphins b/c those teams did not need QBs. You haters just hate ND, simply put........If you think about it, Russell is not very accurate as well, and what....only started for really 1 season, maybe 1.5 due to injuries, but you don't hear that, who cares if he can throw the ball 70 yards, the last player to throw the ball that far was Kyle Boller......and we all know how that turned outed. I'm mindboggle how people say Quinn can't win the big game, in case you all didn't notice, every game at ND is a big game. What about Quinn and ND against USC in 2005, they weren't even supposed to be close in that game, and they should off won that game, but you don't hear anything about that.....hmmmmm interesting. I hope Quinn comes out and proves to all that he is, and will be the better QB. The thing Russell has going for him is that his 6'5 and 300 ibs (a possible Culpepper). One more thing, how many good QBs have come out of LSU.........not many at all........I think NDs got them beat by far.....
Quinn was overrated. The Browns still gave up to much to get him, but at least they won't be overpaying him as much as they would have if they had taken him third. I saw both ND and Mich St play a lot last year (including against each other) and I think Stanton is every bit as good as Quinn (neither is perfect.) Tedd Ginn, if he was healthy, could have been the best player in the draft, so Miami wasn't reaching that much.
I must be missing something here... What's wrong with St. Louis' QB depth? The Rams have got a Pro Bowl QB for a starter in Marc Bulger, a solid veteran as back-up in Gus Frerotte and an interesting project as third stringer in Ryan Fitzpatrick... Seems like quite a good QB orster to me...
To the ND sycophant who suggests anybody thinking Quinn is over-rated hates ND. It depends on your definition of "big game". If "big game" means "national TV", then you're right - the Notre Dame Broadcasting Company takes care of that (I was especially impressed by the "big game" win against North Carolina.) If "big game" means "game against team that is a nationaly championship contender and/or in a bowl game", then Quinn was 0-fer (admittedly he played well enough against USC in 05 though).
I think the Raiders made a big mistake in Russel. They should have taken Kolb instead. He's a more active and accurate passer short and middle. with the speed of the defences today you don't have time for 60 or 80 yard passes. To hope for pass interferrence does't make a Quarterback.
The real question, is how on earth did Quinn go in the first round at all? He wouldn't have, if the media hadn't hyped him so much. None of the pro teams liked him much, except the Browns, who were willing to risk losing him. For those of you saying Quinn is as good as Russell: LSU 41 - ND 14, Sugar Bowl. The reason Quinn was selected at 22 is that he faced sub-par competition all throughout college--service academies and some other creampuffs--and when ND ever played a real team, the LOST. . . to Michigan, to USC, to LSU, to any decent team they played under Quinn's watch.
"the quarterback position is more about brains than brawn, so amazing physical skills aren't as valued in signal-callers."
How do you explain the Jamarcus Russell pick then? Because he was consistently described as making worse decisions than Brady Quinn. I think everyone was high on him for his physical ability, not his mental ability.
Why is it such a BIG deal that Brady Quinn fell in the draft? One comment was because he didn't play well under pressure. Troy Smith played well under pressure and he went in the 5th round! Chris Leake played well under pressure and he wasn't drafted! So where's the controversy? I still think his chances are better at becoming the next Ryan Leaf than Peyton Manning or Tom Brady.
Just one question: How many Notre Dame players on offense went on the first day????? Now let us ask the same question for LSU????? Russell can throw 80 yards from his knees but in the NFL your considered down from that position. I think before you scrutinize a guy this painfully you should consider the talent around him and how often the Irish were so far behind in games that they were playing catch up or games in which the Irish had to score 40 points to compete (with insufficient talent). As far as I'm concerned those who say he can't win the big game are putting Quinn in with good company, fellows like, Manning and Elway. You want to talk about smarts, well I would suggest that none of the people who posted on this site even have the credentials to go to Notre Dame. Don't beat the guy up too much just because your wife/girlfriend/or significant other thinks he's hot, get over it! Go Browns #1
Two observations about the conventional "wisdom" as has been spouted here ...
Consensus: Brady Quinn doesn't deal well with pressure
Fact: Every single time over the last two years (having been delivered from the virtuosity of Ty Willingham) that Brady Quinn had the opportunity to give ND the lead in the fourth quarter of a game, he did so. I realize that he needs to be held accountable for the failure of a pitiful defense, but I thought that should be pointed out.
quote:You forgot the most important reason: Quinn was overrated to begin with. Nothing against him personally, but Notre Dame QBs always are. Indeed. I'm certain that Bill Walsh and the 49ers believed that when they drafted some kid from ND.
The beauty of this from the Browns standpoint is that they didn't have to take him number 2 overall which probably scared them after the Tim Couch debacle. They may have given up their 2008 first round pick to get him but at least they will get him for reasonable money, personally I think he will have a much more productive career than Jamarcus Rusell. He's going to a system that he basically already knows to a coaching staff that has a direct line to Charlie Wies and the Browns did a great job this offseason rebuilding their offensive line. Give Phil Savage some credit for getting both of the players the Browns wanted at number 2. Hopefully Romeo Crenel will be given more time beyond the 2007 season to get the Browns into playoff contention.
The thing that baffels me the most is the folks who claim that Quinn isn't durable when he was a 4 year starter at Notre Dame. How many other college QB's can make that claim? Very few! Most QB's at the college level are lucky to get 1 or 2 years to be the teams starter, even Tom Brady had a hard time surpassing Drew Henson at Michigan and was only the Wolverines starter for a little more than a season, so what does that tell you? The Dolphins made a huge mistake passing up on Quinn and that will be evident in a couple of seasons when the Browns are playoff bound and the Fins are sitting at home scratching their heads and wondering what if.
Andrew's not crazy about the Rams QB situation? Here's all you need to know to explain why the Rams didn't need Quinn: Quarterback with the most 100+ QB Rating games-Marc Bulger. Worst run defense in the league- St Louis Rams.
I am so glad that Miami passed on the next QB bust. Over the years I have a good track record in this area. I told many Buc fans that Dilfer would drag them down. Also was sure that Leftwitch would kill (and still is killing) Jacksonville. Sorry Browns fans but you might want to look at the Sugar Bowl. Can't wait Till week six when Taylor and Porter Take him to school. Call the class "Sack and Fumble 101". Dan-Florida
I am not impressed with Quinn. He didn't radiate greatness at the collegiate level, how can you expect him to do it at a professional level? He plays very nervous and easily frazzled with the slightest bit of pressure. I am actually quite surprised Cleveland traded up for him. They could have waited and got a Beck or Stanton and maybe traded for Green. He lacks poise and he has a much higher probability of mediocrity at best than greatness.
Wow, hard to believe how so many people can be so certain of the outcome of a future player. Let's face it, all of this is a crap shoot at best. Even the so called "experts" have absolutely no clue. Teams need to go with their gut, instinct and the dire needs at the time and what is available. As an Ohio State fan, I love Ginn, Jr., however to take an undersized receiver in the first round at #9 is rediculous, when other talent (other than Quinn) is available. I can't believe any team would pay Ginn, Jr. first round money to return punts and be a 3rd down slot receiver. Let's face it at under 6 foot and 178, he won't exactly make many DB's nervous, they will chuck at the line, which most colleges do not do. If he goes across the middle, ouch, the linebackers will kill him. I am a Brown's fan and to get him and Joe Thomas was the best possible moves. He does not need to be Peyton Manning, Joe Montana, etc. He just needs to be good, let the Browns build around him. It can happen like it did for the Ravens in 2000 with Trent Dilfer.
Let's check back on this in a few years, after these guys have had a chance to prove themselves on the field. For now, I think Mortensen made the best comment: 'Do you think Quinn is $20 million better than the next QBs on your draft board?' I don't, but I guess we'll see. I'm not sold on Weis as a coaching genius nor Quinn as a great QB. I think the Dolphins got it right: get a guy you can only get in the first round IN the first round, then get a 'just about as good' QB in the second. The Browns got overexcited - and they're going to miss that first round pick next year that they traded away on this gamble.
I think the majority of the comments in response to this article are absurd. System or no system, this guy handled the pressure of Notre Dame with class and had a great career. Last time I checked, you still have to execute the system (Weis) and Brady did that to perfection. The truth is that he had an average supporting cast but he made his teammates better and he clearly has the right stuff. I am confident that the majority of those posting comments never played in college, much less the NFL and are great at Monday Morning quarterbacking. I think the Browns made a great move and over the course of his career, Brady will make his team better and have a great career. However, once that happens, I am sure the "naysayers" will come up with another excuse why he succeeded, rather than on desire, determination and talent.
Look at Aikman's first season as a rookie and check out his 3 SB rings. It takes some time to develop a QB. Elway stunk up the place, too. Remember how great Marino was in year one? Well for being a great rookie it never got him a ring. Give these guys time.
All of these fake rudy's are funny to me. How many good qb's have come out of LSU. ND hasn't had one since Montana in 79, and 80% of you never saw him play on ND. Suffering through Willingham. Do you remember where you were BEFORE him. ND was a joke in danger of losing their contract with NBC then they go on a national title run his first year and suffer for the next two. Quinn got crushed whenever he wasn't playing Air Force, Army, or Navy. The QB who came out the best out of the entire draft was Troy Smith at #174. He gets to go to a great club (ravens) study behind a Very good QB (McNair) with a great O line (that has a HOF'er on it) and RB (McGahee). And he only lost ONE big game his whole career. Russell is going to get killed in Oak, same for Quinn in Cleveland, where he will be rushed into action (you guys do realize the teams that he has to play Cincy, Baltimore, Pitt do any of those defenses suck, NO).
I've heard too many references to Quinn resembling Joe Montana. This is ridiculous. I'm reminded more of Rick Mirer, and I'm sure the careers will be of a similar nature...highly overated...3rd round talent in my mind
As much as Quinn's fall from the expected top of the draft is shocking to some, I find it far more shocking that proven winning quarterback and Heisman Trophy winner Troy Smith did not get chosen until the 5th round, just because he's short.
Personally I hope Quinn is highly successful with the Browns; he's a nice kid with a good head on his shoulders. But even if he fails, at least he's been given a chance and being paid fairly. Troy Smith, on the other hand, is going to have to start over and earn himself the chance and the salary he really deserved.
First of all you said Jacksonville twice and second of all there is no QB situation in St.Louis, we have a great starter in Bulger, and with the right weapons around him and a more balanced offense, he could be poised to have a great year.
It's interesting the debate about Quinn is far more detailed than any debate about Russell. I guess if you play with a loaded squad, far superior to Quinn's teamates, and you can throw a ball 60 yards while on your knees, yet don' thave any better stats than Quinn, somehow you are more prepared and a better player. I pity Russell. He is going to a completely screwed up organization, no offensive line, no recievers, and not much of a running game. Quinn gets to go to a young growing squad with Winslow, Jurevicious, Wilson, and Edwards to throw to and a suddenly superior collection of offensive lineman. While Russell is a superior athlete, Quinn will be the more effective pro.
I am so sick of hearing about Brady Quinn. He was not the best player in the draft (Calvin Johnson) nor was he the best QB (J Russell.) Yet his face is everywhere and there is far more written and discussed about him than the 22 players drafted before him. His picture was on the home page of this website on draft day and not Russell. Time will tell as to what type of pro he will be, but I know that if he were not a white QB from ND he would not be getting so much attention. The media bias here is so blatant that it's sickening.
Re: Eli Manning... it's funny how people consider him a bust or less than Roethlisberger or Rivers when his team has made the playoffs two straight years. It's not as if he's Tim Couch.
Brady Quinn always had talent. I noticed it when he was still playing under Ty Willingham. The major difference under Weis was that Charlie was able to elevate the level of everyone else... the o-line, Maurice Stovall, Jeff Samardzija, Rhema McKnight, Anthony Fasano, and John Carlson. If you want to talk about a player who was overhyped and benefited from Weis' coaching, it was first day pick LT Ryan Harris, who is really not a good player at all. I would be really surprised if Quinn didn't turn out to be a good NFL QB.
Some guy posted that ND is hated at the level of the Yankees. Ummm hello, Yankees win championships, ND hasn't sniffed the trophy in a while. We hate them because we have to watch boring games against the service academys. Another thing, ND is not QB U, they have one name to hang their hat on and somehow he is supposed to make them QB U! Go figure.
Notre Dame fans' loyalty is always impressive, which I respect, but it is often misguided. For the sake of full disclosure, I'm a USC fan.
Brady Quinn wasn't picked very highly because in the NFL, there are no Army, Navy, and Air Forces. Every team you play is a USC or Michigan or LSU. (not to mention the fact that he played badly against Michigan State and UCLA until the end) The LSU game really hurt him I think because LSU's defense was extremely fast, like an NFL team's.
Quinn had a great offensive tutor at ND in Charlie Weis, but that doesn't necessarily mean success in the NFL. For every Carson Palmer and Matt Leinart, who studied under the great Norm Chow, there are the Trent Dilfers, Joey Harringtons, David Carrs, Kyle Bollers and Aaron Rodgers', who studied under the "great" Jeff Tedford. Look what it got THEM? (In Dilfer's case, a Super Bowl-winning defense)
I DO find it amusing, however, that Quinn went from being the Raiders' future savior (i.e., there was a "the Raiders had better keep losing so they can win the Brady Quinn sweepstakes" kinda thing going on last season) to being suddenly a guaranteed bust. Did Quinn really get that much worse over the course of a couple months?
He's playing for the team he wanted to play for, and he still went in the first round. Plus, he'll have a bookend tackle protecting him. His situation isn't awful. Give the kid a chance, and we'll see what he can do with Braylon Edwards and Kellen Winslow playing catch. He might even learn to handle a little pressure.
Quinn had a 60% pass completion percentage in college, how does that translate into innacurate? Most of the people predicting Quinn to fail always seem to dodge the point that Quinn played with an average offense and pourous defense. He carried ND on his back for four years, the only reason he "couldnt win the big one" was because he couldnt play defense as well. People these days are just obsessed with scrambling QBs, yes Young, Vick, and Russel can probably create on the move, but Quinn is a pure pocket passer. (Dont blame him for McKnight's drops and the defense spotting other teams 40 pts) Cleveland had a great draft, Thomas will protect, and Quinn will find the open guys (Edwards and if he actually plays Winslow) At least wait until one preseason game before names like Mirer, Leaf, etc start getting tossed at the guy.
Anyone who says that Brady Quinn is overrated obviously either doesnt know anything about football or didnt watch any of his games. He is the best college QB that i have ever seen play the game. He has a great arm just no Jamarcus russell arm and its not like your going to throw the ball 70 yards very often. In 3 years everyone who passed him is going to regret it because he is going to be one of the all time greats bank on it.
Ok, here is a different way to look at Brady Quinn vs JaMarcus Russell:
How many ND players were highly-touted and ended up going high in the draft? His best receiver, Jeff Smara-whatever, ended up playing baseball but was more overrated than Ted Ginn and Dwayne Jarret... combined. Rhema McKnight and Darius Walker went undrafted. I think a couple of the O-linemen went in rounds 3-7, but no defenders that I can recall until round 7. Russell, on the other hand, had what ammounts to a pro-team by itself as a supporting cast (Bowe, Craig, Landry, the other safety who I can't remember, Addai last year, the whole D-line who will be picked on the first day next year, and probably a lot of others that I'm forgetting).
So, since this is a team sport, maybe its a little early to condemn Quinn as a future bust given the overall talent level at ND the past few seasons and the team's (outside of QB) contribution to the performance on Saturdays.
The 23rd and the 30th picks in the first round of the draft were wide receivers from LSU. I wonder how Brady Quinn would have looked like with that kind of talent catching his passes. Notre Dame had no wide receivers or running backs picked in this years draft.